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+---- Thread: Poisons discussion (/showthread.php?tid=2835)
RE: Poisons discussion - Hellstrom - 04-13-2015
(04-11-2015, 10:29 PM)Bertram Anders Wrote:(04-11-2015, 09:03 PM)Thayan Wrote: I just went through and greatly reduced the price of all poisons. Some have been reduced by several thousand gold, except for the two poisons that cause permanent abilities score decreases. I also turned off the restriction that the Use Poison feat is required, so that anyone can use them now as well. BUT, I also increased the Handle DC by quite a bit, so make sure you have decent dexterity before trying to use them or you'll poison yourself more often than not.
Awesome. I am looking forward to trying this out.
(04-11-2015, 09:03 PM)Thayan Wrote: Overall though, I've always felt poisons in D&D 3.0 rules were pretty...'meh'. I feared poison a helluva lot more in games like Baldur's Gate (2nd edition rules), where poison would do damage for a number of rounds until either neutralized or it ran its course. This conversation has got me thinking that a type of wounding property, while not in alignment in D&D 3.x rules, might be a good way for poisons to start seeing some use. Especially after the large amount of time that was sunk into completely revising the poison system here long ago - and including all poisons types with it. Or, if nothing else, at least give Blackguards/Assassins an added benefit of wounding/poison damage with a successful strike. Kind of a hybrid of 2nd and 3rd edition rules. Any comments on that idea?
I like the idea of this change. You could implement a wounding type poison and that would work well. Though I would wait and see what suggestions come from the class change thread. If nothing better comes from it, that idea would be a marvelous addition to the assassin and BG classes and and a good incentive to take one of the two classes.
I'm in full agreement with these changes, and totally agree with Bert's last statement. Right now being poisoned only seems to only be an annoyance, varying from minor to major annoyance. But I can really only recall maybe one instance when I thought the attribute losses might kill my char.
If a PC gets hit with (and fails their save) by the same poison more than once will the effects stack? I'd think it should. The same goes for being affected by two different poisons at once.
RE: Poisons discussion - LooseWilly - 04-13-2015
Quote:Thayan Wrote:
Overall though, I've always felt poisons in D&D 3.0 rules were pretty...'meh'. I feared poison a helluva lot more in games like Baldur's Gate (2nd edition rules), where poison would do damage for a number of rounds until either neutralized or it ran its course. This conversation has got me thinking that a type of wounding property, while not in alignment in D&D 3.x rules, might be a good way for poisons to start seeing some use. Especially after the large amount of time that was sunk into completely revising the poison system here long ago - and including all poisons types with it. Or, if nothing else, at least give Blackguards/Assassins an added benefit of wounding/poison damage with a successful strike. Kind of a hybrid of 2nd and 3rd edition rules. Any comments on that idea?
I think that would be a wonderful tweak for the poisons... and the price reduction will make it possible to use some more interesting ones (the blue whinnis and something or other ichor, and even the carrion crawler brain juice, poisons either never have any noticeable effect, or everything keeps making the ridiculously easy saves against them... but those are the only poisons dropping with any regularity as loot).
Now I have something to look forward to besides being dropped in toe to toe fights due to a poor ac with my assassin...
It does occur to me that giving a boost on the dc for poison use for assassins (maybe equivalent to the poison save bonuses they get for themselves?... with maybe bonus feats to improve still further still?) might also be an interesting tweak for assassins... which I guess I should mention in that other thread too, as it's more than just a poisoning idea.
RE: Poisons discussion - Balanor - 04-14-2015
Here is a list of all the poisons, including the DC for Saves - http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Poison
With poisons becoming available to the masses again (although Assassins and Blackguards are the only ones guaranteed *not* to accidentally poison themselves) if anyone is trying a certain poison type and it doesn't seem to work, please post a problem report.
I'm considering what, if any, other changes to make to poisons as this does tie a bit into the class modification discussions as well. So if you have other ideas or recommendations, feel free to voice them.
RE: Poisons discussion - LifeLikeSage - 04-15-2015
(04-11-2015, 09:03 PM)Thayan Wrote: I just went through and greatly reduced the price of all poisons. Some have been reduced by several thousand gold, except for the two poisons that cause permanent abilities score decreases. I also turned off the restriction that the Use Poison feat is required, so that anyone can use them now as well. BUT, I also increased the Handle DC by quite a bit, so make sure you have decent dexterity before trying to use them or you'll poison yourself more often than not.
They can be applied to ranged weapons, melee weapons, and even food/drink items in Thay. Poison here lasts until the weapon successful hits a target, and should remain once applied to a weapon/food/drink even over server resets as well.
Overall though, I've always felt poisons in D&D 3.0 rules were pretty...'meh'. I feared poison a helluva lot more in games like Baldur's Gate (2nd edition rules), where poison would do damage for a number of rounds until either neutralized or it ran its course. This conversation has got me thinking that a type of wounding property, while not in alignment in D&D 3.x rules, might be a good way for poisons to start seeing some use. Especially after the large amount of time that was sunk into completely revising the poison system here long ago - and including all poisons types with it. Or, if nothing else, at least give Blackguards/Assassins an added benefit of wounding/poison damage with a successful strike. Kind of a hybrid of 2nd and 3rd edition rules. Any comments on that idea?
The idea of being able to do wounding damage could make it worthwhile to take more assassin levels, especially if the wounding damage cannot be resisted by the damage reduction that most enemies tend to have (maybe make the wounding damage be magical instead of physical).
Additionally, to counter monsters not being able to avoid damage through resists the way they do with poopy throwables like caltrops, you might give all NPCs a change in the loot table so they have a range of 0-2 healing potions they can spawn with to both heal and counteract the wounding; It would be a good alternative to them not taking any damage from wounding at all because they have DR.
RE: Poisons discussion - Hellstrom - 04-21-2015
(04-15-2015, 06:32 AM)LifeLikeSage Wrote: Additionally, to counter monsters not being able to avoid damage through resists the way they do with poopy throwables like caltrops...
:idea: Would it be possible to make caltrops poisonable? Would that even work if the caltrop damage isn't getting through the DR?
RE: Poisons discussion - Animayhem - 04-21-2015
(04-21-2015, 01:59 PM)Hellstrom Wrote:(04-15-2015, 06:32 AM)LifeLikeSage Wrote: Additionally, to counter monsters not being able to avoid damage through resists the way they do with poopy throwables like caltrops...
:idea: Would it be possible to make caltrops poisonable? Would that even work if the caltrop damage isn't getting through the DR?
Caltrops as they are do cause damage like getting asbestos under the skin. :P Also if pcs have them NPcs will too.
So people will need to stock up on more potions and bandages if this goes into effect.
RE: Poisons discussion - Hellstrom - 04-21-2015
(04-21-2015, 02:29 PM)Animayhem Wrote: Caltrops as they are do cause damage like getting asbestos under the skin. :P Also if pcs have them NPcs will too.
I think LLS's point was that too many monsters can simply ignore caltrops because of their damage resists. It would be nice if caltrops were a bit more useful. Allowing them to be poisoned might be one way. Another way might be to have them give a temporary Slow effect if they do damage (it's hard to run with a spike in your foot).
(04-21-2015, 02:29 PM)Animayhem Wrote: So people will need to stock up on more potions and bandages if this goes into effect.
People already need to stock up on those things. I can't imagine some changes to caltrops changing things too much for PCs. On the other hand, making some changes to poisons might encourage more people to carry some Neutralize Poison potions.
Another :idea: what about allowing a very hard Heal DC to remove the poison or to stop the poison's secondary effect. Maybe against the poison's DC?
Sorry if I'm adding too much work for you T :)
RE: Poisons discussion - Balanor - 12-17-2015
I'm raising this thread from the dead to give everyone fair warning that a change will be coming to poisons soon in which most poison will become more dangerous based on the discussions held here earlier this year. The changes will apply to monster bolt, cone, pulse, claw, and bite poison attacks, the poison spell, and weapons or food that have been poisoned by a PC (or DM possessed NPC) with a specific type of poison. So stock up on antidotes, find the special questgiver that rewards a temporary poison-immunity item, or join a faction with a faction item that has the permanent poison immunity on it - you're going to want to have them. Because poison in an assassin-and-betrayal-filled Thay will finally become more than just an annoyance since it will be possible to actually hurt, or even kill, someone with it. Halleluiah.
The Details of What's Changing -
First, Thay's poisons will soon cause damage in the amount of their Save DC over the course of every turn (minute) until either neutralized or a save is eventually made to overcome it. Damage from poison is spread out evenly over the course of the turn, so in some cases the damage will occur every 2 seconds or less (Gargantuan Spider Venom with a DC of 36), while in other cases it will 'only' occur as often as every 6 seconds (Nightshade with a DC of 10). The list of Save DCs, which will translate to damage/turn, can be found here - http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Poison
Next, poison will be recurring each turn, rather than the one-turn-and-done system we have had with the default NWN gameplay. So that means almost all poison will not leave someone's system until they either succeed against the secondary effect saving throw at the end of the turn, succeed against the initial saving throw that will immediately follow at the beginning of the next turn, or they drink an antidote/use magic to neutralize the poison. So even lower-DC poisons can result in severely depleted ability scores, and a significant amount of damage, if the target fails multiple saving throws to overcome the poison and doesn't have a way to neutralize it. In Thay, as in the real world, death by poison may be a debilitating, slow, and painful affair...
Finally, if poison damage drops a PC to less than 1 hit point, they will not go through the bleeding process but instead die immediately. Essentially your bleeding process with poison will be when it's causing damage over the minute(s) that you're able to do something about stopping it. This is similar to how dying from hunger or thirst, or sustaining a massive amount of killing damage, works as well. Raise Dead or putting your fate in the hands of your mysterious allies (respawning) will be the only ways to save a PC whose body succumbs to poison. So in those very rare circumstances, where PvP Guidelines have been followed, when you truly want the other PC dead with no chance of stabilizing while bleeding after you stick them with a blade....use poison.
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If you have any questions, comments, concerns - or would really like to see something *not* go into effect as explained about, feel free to post here or PM me. Otherwise, changes to poisons will likely occur sometime this weekend.
RE: Poisons discussion - Bertram Anders - 12-17-2015
Will the new effectiveness of the poisons be reflected in their cost?
RE: Poisons discussion - Balanor - 12-17-2015
I don't intend to revise their current prices, but back around the time this thread started this year I did go through and revised the cost of all to, generally, make the higher DC poisons more expensive than the lower DC poisons.