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Thay - historic RL societies - muvs - 02-16-2015
Hello to all.
As I read more of the literature regarding Thay from these forums and perhaps elsewhere I am drawing a few parallels with true historic societies. To my thinking Thay is similar to Ptolemaic Egypt in the later years of the Roman Empire. I am also getting some of the flavor of the Romano/Hellenist/diadochi kingdoms of the eastern empires, like the Seleucid etc.
To translate this into D&D early-mid Medieval tech levels I suppose the Late Byzantine Empire would be a decent model to pull from as well...even though of course Thay and Fearun are their own conceptions, along with Thayan's visions for the land. It simply is a help for me to be able to draw on some historic societies to better RP etc.
I am not greatly familiar with the Forgotten Realms setting as when I played PnP it was more Greyhawk based, Duchy of Karameikos style but this hasn't been too much of a hindrance for me gaming on NwN. I suppose becoming accustomed to the Gods/Lore is biggest concern but Thay has done a splendid job of incorporating the Gods into the Realms in an informative and 'felt' manner. Makes the learning fun!!!
These are just some random thoughts but I do enjoy the Thayan experience in that I am a bit of a Hellenistic/history buff, that along with it being a dark land, more true to historic societies is really cool. I like the low/ non-epic focus on scope. As player and DM I'd always felt levels 5-15 was the sweet spot for character development and survivability within the game mechanics. The easily available low level magical gear is a treat as it isn't the same ol same ol and obviously not over empowering. I can also tell the scripting here is top notch a lot of cool doodads that make the world breath...and the proselytizing is simply unique and hilarious.
At any Rate thanks to the staff for keeping this PW fresh and fun. I will be devoting more time to reading up on the lore of the realms so I will be more able to appreciate some of the finer points etc.
Thay, alongside only perhaps 2-3 others is tops among the PWs I have been involved with. After all these years it warms my heart (that is ten times too small) that there are still some strong NwN communities keeping the porch light on for we old timey gamers! :D
RE: Thay - historic RL societies - LooseWilly - 02-16-2015
Ptolomaic Egypt is about where I feel Thay fits historically... but I think it has a more sinister feel to it.
It's like Mulhorand is Ptolomaic Egypt, and Thay is a breakaway kingdom that has turned more toward Set than Horus. Like Stygia in the world of Hyboria (RE Howard's setting for Conan, which isn't horribly ill-portrayed in the Conan movies when it comes to dusky wizards who're like boogey men to the more virtuous neighboring lands).
RE: Thay - historic RL societies - muvs - 02-16-2015
Yup:D, I'm right with you I feel the D&D team used Howard's Hyboria for a good deal of the various settings, they are excellent source materials of course. The area of Argos, Koth, Shem, Stygia is a good source for playing here I believe. And I agree the dark fantasy factor is much more inline with REH Hyborian realms than our, at least documented past...
All in all the Roman times were pretty horrific, even sans death magics.
RE: Thay - historic RL societies - MoreThanThree - 02-16-2015
I read somewhere on an obscure forum, where they were drawing historical parralells, that Thay was the "Ottoman empire except run by the Nazis for some reason".
RE: Thay - historic RL societies - Bishop Edward - 02-16-2015
(02-16-2015, 03:19 PM)muvs Wrote: Hello to all.
First of all, Hello to you too! Welcome to Thay! Always glad to have new or returning players around.
Secondly, I've always felt that Thay was one of the most unique places in the Forgotten Realms with the least correlation to any RL society. Much of FR is indeed ripped from other sources both historical and fantasy. Yet I feel Thay in particular is exceedingly original. (Waterdeep is also very original). With its pseudo-republican form of government co-existing with traditional noble houses, etc., I could see how you could derive a comparison with Byzantium (and given its physical geographic location as an imperialistic hub between East and West), yet the actually geography itself (the Thaymount) is rather without any real RL corollary. Additionally the Red Wizards themselves stands apart from the usual fare both historical and fantasy as a highly original Magocracy.
Thirdly, I would posit that the Mulani themselves are in fact a thinly veiled reference to the Hebrew Jews. In their lore, they are said to be the 'slave race' of the empires in the other world from whence they came (not actual citizen-members of those societies). The societies they first formed in Faerun before Thay would be Mulhorand and Unther. It's from Mulhorand that people get the idea that Mulani are based on Egyptian (people), but that's not the whole story. They weren't Egyptians, they were the slaves of the Egyptians (vis-à-vis The Exodus). Likewise they also founded Unther which is a pastiche of Babylon (vis-à-vis The Babylonian Captivity). If you examine their culture they have other (some stereotypical I'll admit) aspects toward that end as well: their racial purity and racial superiority complex, their propensity toward greed (selling and hoarding magical items), AND the fact that they establish Enclaves (ghettos) all over the world (diaspora), I think together presents very strong evidence of this correlation. And it's easy to see why the modern material strictly de-emphasizes this for a combination of reasons (political correctness, greater market share, etc.);(first edition sources even had the Thayans as exceedingly misogynistic and homophobic, but this was taken out of subsequent editions).
Looking forward to hearing your further thoughts on it.
RE: Thay - historic RL societies - TheShadowEntity - 02-17-2015
(02-16-2015, 05:21 PM)Bishop Edward Wrote:(02-16-2015, 03:19 PM)muvs Wrote: Hello to all.
First of all, Hello to you too! Welcome to Thay! Always glad to have new or returning players around.
Secondly, I've always felt that Thay was one of the most unique places in the Forgotten Realms with the least correlation to any RL society. Much of FR is indeed ripped from other sources both historical and fantasy. Yet I feel Thay in particular is exceedingly original. (Waterdeep is also very original). With its pseudo-republican form of government co-existing with traditional noble houses, etc., I could see how you could derive a comparison with Byzantium (and given its physical geographic location as an imperialistic hub between East and West), yet the actually geography itself (the Thaymount) is rather without any real RL corollary. Additionally the Red Wizards themselves stands apart from the usual fare both historical and fantasy as a highly original Magocracy.
Looking forward to hearing your further thoughts on it.
Ive allways considered Cormyr to be the most "Byzantine" civilization. but the truth is that I must agree on the note of thay being such an original work. Often you can find hints of inspiration and sometimes even outright parallels between the D&D nations and cultures in the real world but thay stands out as unique.
Also the geography of where these cultures are seems to differ totally from the real world in relation. I would comment further but finding a political world map of Toril has proven fruitless as i have been wanting to attempt to piece together a culture equivalent map for some time.
RE: Thay - historic RL societies - LooseWilly - 02-21-2015
Hmm... Mulhorand as a land founded by pseudo Israelites?... an interesting proposition.
The laying of gods like Set as being Mulhorandi was my reason for associating with Egypt (for obvious associative reasons). If one were truly going to press insistently on a RL equivalent, I suppose the Judaic emphasis on education (real or mythological) would also lend itself to supporting that theory. Nepthys(sp?), the Mulhorandi goddess of trade would also suit that sort of ideational association (real or mythological).
The slave holding aristocracy, however, lends itself toward other associations (at least in my mythological understanding). Not Roman (though close, economically), not Persian (though close, culturally)... not Ottoman (though a closer fit if trying to shoehorn a mix of economics and culture into one... shoe).
I doubt it's historical, but a territory controlled by the mythical Hashishim (Hassan i Sabbah: Nothing is Real, Everything is Permitted... as related by the "historical" fiction of William S. Burroughs...) seems likely to be... closest? And, again, I find myself essentially falling back into the notion of Hyboria's Stygia...
An Ottoman (or Persian/Iranian) realm ruled by an absolutely powerful aristocracy (magocracy) along the lines/theories of the Nazis as portrayed in Raiders of the Lost Ark and/or Captain America (the cultist neo-Aryan mythologists)... in a world where all the superstitious (syphilis induced) wonders of an a la carte mythological smorgasbord that serves those leaders interests is materializable?... It's a harder thing to get one's head around than watching a Conan movie and placing the magocracy firmly in the camp of those who snake-whisper up arrows to shoot at blondes that defy them... or maybe reading a Conan short story about Amun-Thoth's plots... but if it makes things work for one, knock ... oneself... out.
;)
RE: Thay - historic RL societies - muvs - 02-21-2015
Ahh, it is so that others have some interesting thoughts and opinions on this line as well.
Searching for some base knowledge of Thay I read through some D&D canon background info provided by (KTA?) in the forum background section. As it is written the Mulan ethnic group were 'ported' from earth to enlarge the Imaskar armies long ago, their gods followed them for a time till expelled by Ao. The peoples from earth ported were Egyptian, their gods the Horus, Set etc. I was fairly certain that I picked up on that early though I hadn't figured on such a concrete connection.
I am actually almost ashamed that I didn't think Ottoman Empire but I generally place that in too late a period...Ottoman Empire was much smaller and Muslim 12th-14th centuries I believe, though growing swiftly. The comparison to Nazi rule has some gravity to it. Autocratic, racially/elite/econo driven, many of leadership influenced or leaning towards occultism rather than religion. To the issue of slavery, the stalag/stammlager concentration camps in Germany were around from 32?? and there were many work camps. Although, come to think, Tzarist Russia could fit the bill as well...
As an aside, since originality has been brought up. I find it over rated, according to the context. I paint a bit, and in the contemporary art world originality and conceptualization(supposed or other) are prized over skill/talent and hard work. I am saddened that many artist have interesting ideas but lack the tools to express that creativity, so we get what we get...there are very very few artisans working today that have the nut and bolt skills of a Sargent or Rembrandt. Rembrandt was not original in a sense, he painted stuff that looked like stuff :D but my god, the way he did it...it makes other artist sick with admiration! In effect, I find Thay to be quite original without having to divorce itself from historical points of inspiration and creation. It has the nuts and bolts
To the point; As it is it merely helps me to be able to have a feeling/thought while gaming of "what would I do, who would I have been" to RP and being able to place myself in a reality I am familiar with is why I seek historic parallels. I would suggest, or even admit that I am not very creative even though I have worked in a field where one is supposed to be creative above all else. I find it too daunting to make stories and characters out of whole cloth and so I seek that which I can draw inspiration from. I have learned in a creative field that inspiration usually trumps focused creative machinations, least for me.
Re; LooseWilly you make the true point that Fearun is no Hyboria but I still do use REH's and Clark A Smith's+LoveCraft etc. writing for inspiration. Magic became something truly great and horrible in their realms and sword&sorcery is my preferred context in RPGs. Gary G. and the other talented writers of the late 70's to the AD&D 2E era I feel were very much into the more so adult and dark themed fantasy aspect, not always politically correct and often controversial compared to what is being edited away today. I.E. what is wrong with having a people who reflect aspects of the Judeans, they are a very interesting group to put into a fantasy setting...I will have to run it past my Russian Jewish wife and see how antisemitic she feels it would be. To bad imo those type of things are edited for no good reason.
I apologize for the shambles this response has become but was trying obviously to respond to several post without a wall of text attack!
For now, Thanks for the responses.