[Animayhem]

Is it multi classing that you want to avoid or is it just that rouge doesn't fit in with your characters personality, because if your character has an interest in wands or rods then they might feel inclined to study wizardry, but if your talking about your own desire to use rods or wands then I understand.

Again my views. :)

Right now to achieve some classes you need to multiclass as that is what the NWN game engine is.

With Marister yes, I do not want to multiclass. He is kind of a free spirit but not roguish to the point he wants to break into places and such. :) He can cast some minor ranger spells and has some of the special quest trinkets. He did manage to save enough gold and increase some spells on them.
He rather be low on wizards radar. If he started to use a lot of wands and rods well.... :)

Rimeth has spellcraft and umd and one level of wiz but still has a decent rate of failure which works as an Elf who shows too much magic prowess in Thay... :P
is not that healthy for an Elf.

I am not against what has been suggested but I understand the work involved in changing such.

[Wids]

You seem to be fixated on UMD, Ani. But UMD isn't the point here; Perform is. So what about the Perform skill?

[Hellstrom]

With Marister yes, I do not want to multiclass. He is kind of a free spirit but not roguish to the point he wants to break into places and such. :)

Rogue doesn't mean thief. You can take levels of rogue, put points into Hide, Move Silent, and UMD and just not put points into Lockpicking or Pickpocketing. Taking levels of rogue doesn't mean a thing about breaking the law or being bad... you can easily have a lawful good rogue.

I am not against what has been suggested but I understand the work involved in changing such.

It frankly sounds dead simple to do and since Wids' point was all about Perform (Animal Handling and UMD were only mentioned to say it would be BAD to modifiy those) I don't have any problem with making Perform available to other classes as it would be of no practical use to any except bards.

The only question I'd have for you Wids is this: this thread seemed to start out as a bit of musing on a topic and now seems to have solidified a bit more into a proposed change. But I don't understand the purpose of the change - are you proposing a new faction be added and making suggestions for the requirements for it, or are you thinking about this in terms of a specific character you'd like to make? :)

[Wids]

Rogue doesn't mean thief. You can take levels of rogue, put points into Hide, Move Silent, and UMD and just not put points into Lockpicking or Pickpocketing. Taking levels of rogue doesn't mean a thing about breaking the law or being bad... you can easily have a lawful good rogue.

Right. Like the Imperial Scout NPCs that I rolled up for my D&D forum game. They're all Lawful Good or Lawful Neutral, and they're not there to act like thieves or to break the law; they're there to spy for the Faceless and Eternal Emperor, ferret out any elements of insurrection and gather intelligence in times of war.

It frankly sounds dead simple to do and since Wids' point was all about Perform (Animal Handling and UMD were only mentioned to say it would be BAD to modifiy those) I don't have any problem with making Perform available to other classes as it would be of no practical use to any except bards.

The only question I'd have for you Wids is this: this thread seemed to start out as a bit of musing on a topic and now seems to have solidified a bit more into a proposed change. But I don't understand the purpose of the change - are you proposing a new faction be added and making suggestions for the requirements for it, or are you thinking about this in terms of a specific character you'd like to make? :)

No, it wouldn't need to be any new faction; there's already a Church of Lliira on the server, and any Scarlet Mummer characters could simply join that. The Scarlet Mummers are to the Church of Lliira what the Companions of the Noble Heart are to the Church of Ilmater: They sully themselves and take on all the fighting and killing and defending so their pacifistic brethren don't have to.

But Joybringers, Scarlet Mummers and pretty much every devotee of Lliira has one goddess-appointed responsibility, and that's to bring joy and levity to the masses, often through traditional means of entertainment: song and dance, plays, storytelling, juggling, acrobatics...basically, the various applications of the Perform skill. A mummer is, after all, a type of actor who specializes in pantomime. So if, say, a Ranger wanted to go the Divine Champion route and become a Joybringer or a Scarlet Mummer, it would be nice to have a Perform skill to back up the acting work (even if it meant cross-classing a heap of Skill Points into it). That's all.

[dark_majico]

With Marister yes, I do not want to multiclass. He is kind of a free spirit but not roguish to the point he wants to break into places and such. :)

Rogue doesn't mean thief. You can take levels of rogue, put points into Hide, Move Silent, and UMD and just not put points into Lockpicking or Pickpocketing. Taking levels of rogue doesn't mean a thing about breaking the law or being bad... you can easily have a lawful good rogue.

I am not against what has been suggested but I understand the work involved in changing such.

It frankly sounds dead simple to do and since Wids' point was all about Perform (Animal Handling and UMD were only mentioned to say it would be BAD to modifiy those) I don't have any problem with making Perform available to other classes as it would be of no practical use to any except bards.

The only question I'd have for you Wids is this: this thread seemed to start out as a bit of musing on a topic and now seems to have solidified a bit more into a proposed change. But I don't understand the purpose of the change - are you proposing a new faction be added and making suggestions for the requirements for it, or are you thinking about this in terms of a specific character you'd like to make? :)

HA, you know I hear what your saying, and I hear this point made all the time but I just don't believe it in my own mind. When I look at the rogues character sheet all I can see is "sneaky underhanded backstabbing bastard class, THIEF!". The skills, the feats, sneak attacks, HIPS, weapon proficiencies, everything about the thief class looks like a thief to me, I'd much rather have seen other classes added to NWN instead of an all encompassing notion that the rouge class can mean like (random number) 7 or 8 different types of character or whatever.

[Hellstrom]

HA, you know I hear what your saying, and I hear this point made all the time but I just don't believe it in my own mind. When I look at the rogues character sheet all I can see is "sneaky underhanded backstabbing bastard class, THIEF!". The skills, the feats, sneak attacks, HIPS, weapon proficiencies, everything about the thief class looks like a thief to me, I'd much rather have seen other classes added to NWN instead of an all encompassing notion that the rouge class can mean like (random number) 7 or 8 different types of character or whatever.

And I hear what YOU'RE saying, but to me that's like saying you believe that with the fighter class one should only build a general heavy tank... not a light weapon parry swashbuckler or a weapon specialist (not Weapon Master) or mix fighter into any one of the other classes to make the type of character you've conceived.

IMO the strength of both fighter and rogue classes is how easily they can be mixed in with other classes to create what you're looking for. Rogue is a heavily skill- & feat-based class, but even with all those skill points you generally can't max out all the rogue skills, so you pick and choose where your skill points go, which means choosing a style for how you're going to play the rogue class.

A pure rogue with 16 INT (pretty high) has 11 skill points per level. If you ignore craft armor, craft trap, & craft weapon which are useless in Thay (yes, yes... craft armor for Lycans) that means you've got 8 or 9 class skills you can't put any points into if you're maxing the others. If you build a rogue and don't put any points into lockpicking, pickpocket, or the two traps skills... how is that character even vaguely thief-like?

For the feats, HiPS is shadowdancer, not rogue. If you look at the rogue feats they're really about being dextrous and avoiding damage. That doesn't sound all that thiefy to me, just light and agile. Other than that the only thing that is truly integral to the rogue class is sneak attacks. Monks can be just as stealthy as rogues, does that make them thieves? No.

I firmly stand by my statement about rogues... try thinking about them differently :)

[Wids]

And I hear what YOU'RE saying, but to me that's like saying you believe that with the fighter class one should only build a general heavy tank... not a light weapon parry swashbuckler or a weapon specialist (not Weapon Master) or mix fighter into any one of the other classes to make the type of character you've conceived.

Or a William-Tell-caliber archer. For some reason, people have this crazy idea that Rangers make the best archers. They don't; the Feats and abilities which come with that Class don't even scratch archery's surface. If you want to play a great archer, you go with a high-Dexterity Fighter and sink those Bonus Feat slots into archery-related Feats: Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, Weapon Focus: Longbow, Weapon Specialization: Longbow (which only Fighters -- and not Rangers -- can pick), and so on. You might also consider going with Light or Medium armor, since archers may need to retreat from the enemy before loosing more arrows into them (especially on this server, where heavy armor slows you down considerably).

Remember, people: Just because your Class comes with a Feat doesn't mean that you should use it. All Clerics can wear heavy armor. Heavy armor comes with nasty penalties for certain Dexterity-based Skills (like the stealth skills). So Corella, being a rather Rogue-like Cleric with the Divine Trickery power, shuns heavy armor because it would cause her far more problems than benefits. Same goes for Dex-whore Fighter builds. ;)

But seriously, where did that Ranger stereotype come from?

[dark_majico]

And I hear what YOU'RE saying, but to me that's like saying you believe that with the fighter class one should only build a general heavy tank... not a light weapon parry swashbuckler or a weapon specialist (not Weapon Master) or mix fighter into any one of the other classes to make the type of character you've conceived.

Or a William-Tell-caliber archer. For some reason, people have this crazy idea that Rangers make the best archers. They don't; the Feats and abilities which come with that Class don't even scratch archery's surface. If you want to play a great archer, you go with a high-Dexterity Fighter and sink those Bonus Feat slots into archery-related Feats: Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, Weapon Focus: Longbow, Weapon Specialization: Longbow (which only Fighters -- and not Rangers -- can pick), and so on. You might also consider going with Light or Medium armor, since archers may need to retreat from the enemy before loosing more arrows into them (especially on this server, where heavy armor slows you down considerably).

Remember, people: Just because your Class comes with a Feat doesn't mean that you should use it. All Clerics can wear heavy armor. Heavy armor comes with nasty penalties for certain Dexterity-based Skills (like the stealth skills). So Corella, being a rather Rogue-like Cleric with the Divine Trickery power, shuns heavy armor because it would cause her far more problems than benefits. Same goes for Dex-whore Fighter builds. ;)

But seriously, where did that Ranger stereotype come from?

Robin hood, and I think a long or a short bow is more of a "ranger weapon" because of its connections to woodlands in popular culture, where as I think of swords and daggers when I think rogues, or a crossbow.

---

HA, you know I hear what your saying, and I hear this point made all the time but I just don't believe it in my own mind. When I look at the rogues character sheet all I can see is "sneaky underhanded backstabbing bastard class, THIEF!". The skills, the feats, sneak attacks, HIPS, weapon proficiencies, everything about the thief class looks like a thief to me, I'd much rather have seen other classes added to NWN instead of an all encompassing notion that the rouge class can mean like (random number) 7 or 8 different types of character or whatever.

And I hear what YOU'RE saying, but to me that's like saying you believe that with the fighter class one should only build a general heavy tank... not a light weapon parry swashbuckler or a weapon specialist (not Weapon Master) or mix fighter into any one of the other classes to make the type of character you've conceived.

IMO the strength of both fighter and rogue classes is how easily they can be mixed in with other classes to create what you're looking for. Rogue is a heavily skill- & feat-based class, but even with all those skill points you generally can't max out all the rogue skills, so you pick and choose where your skill points go, which means choosing a style for how you're going to play the rogue class.

A pure rogue with 16 INT (pretty high) has 11 skill points per level. If you ignore craft armor, craft trap, & craft weapon which are useless in Thay (yes, yes... craft armor for Lycans) that means you've got 8 or 9 class skills you can't put any points into if you're maxing the others. If you build a rogue and don't put any points into lockpicking, pickpocket, or the two traps skills... how is that character even vaguely thief-like?

For the feats, HiPS is shadowdancer, not rogue. If you look at the rogue feats they're really about being dextrous and avoiding damage. That doesn't sound all that thiefy to me, just light and agile. Other than that the only thing that is truly integral to the rogue class is sneak attacks. Monks can be just as stealthy as rogues, does that make them thieves? No.

I firmly stand by my statement about rogues... try thinking about them differently :)

aAAAh i think my world just came crashing down, your probably right, im a douche lol

[Animayhem]

True not all rogues evil, pocket pickin ,leeches :) Its the few who give them a bad name :P

Though lock picking and trap disarming capable person good to have along. So apologies to roguish types.

*has all her characters keep a close watch on their bags*

Yes a ranger with a bow stems from Robin Hood and his Merry men as well as many rangers being Elves and usually Elves will use bows. Marister can use a bow but prefers using two blades as to him they are like the teeth and claws of animals

I agree with the feat comments. That is why when I built Rimeth and Marister I used builder mods.

[LooseWilly]

Also, don't forget that Thay is an RP server. Everyone's thinking about rogues for their lockpicking or their hiding...

My cleric/rogue took rogue levels mostly for the bluff skill points... and he wears banded mail and has absolutley 0 skills in hide or move silently. Rogue lets him bluff, and lets him sneak attack, and gives some extremely basic lockpicking and trap cracking skills (not much use after 5th level).

No one seems to ever think of usefulness of the class for con men... and with some charisma, UMD comes rather easy...