[Balanor]

Hey folks - I need your feedback/opinions. Feel free to either PM me, or post here if you prefer a public forum for this. But here is what I am curious with -

1. Encounters. As most of you have probably realized, encounters scale with levels, but in certain cases they may have a minimum cap on them – such as the Thasselen Dungeons not spawning low-level hostiles. What I would like to find out from you is;
a. Are the encounters in general too easy? Too tough?
b. Are they easier at certain levels than others?
c. For you with high-level PCs, are encounters a challenge at all anymore?
d. Does partying make encounters too easy? Should more or higher-level creature be spawned when in a party?

2. Creature selection. Thay uses mostly default NWN creatures in our spawns, with approximately 10% custom created (such Dread Warriors, Blooded Creatures, Spellstitched, etc). The variety of default creatures with a CR of 12 or greater really starts to drop off quickly, which I believe are making things too easy/boring for level 12+ PCs. So I ask;
a. Do you think Thay needs more creature varieties created?
b. If so, at what level(s) should these creatures be created?

3. Upper level PCs. I am fairly certain (95%) I will be temporarily capping PC levels at 15 in the next couple days until more upper-level creatures can be created which will provide more challenges to PCs above level 12+. Depending on whether or not any help is received, the cap may last only days, weeks, or potentially more than a month. When or if a cap is instituted, creature creation will become the top design priority, however any XP accummulation more than 1500 over what is required to get to level 15 will be lost. I know this probably won't be popular with PCs at or nearing this cap, but I want to be forthcoming with this as I truly believe you will have more fun if encounters are not so much grinding out the destruction of 100 skeleton warriors but instead engaging in a difficult struggle that uses most or all of your magic, strength, or tactics on 10 relatively difficult 'greater skeleton wariors' (for example).
Thoughts/comments?

[Karilynn]

1. Encounters;
a. Are the encounters in general too easy? Too tough? --
Response: It depends. Given the duration limit to spells, most casters would likely not make it too far into a place going solo, so would likely need a party to go into the deeper parts of some places where the encountered creatures would be more difficult in some cases. In some places (Nethwatch Keep comes to mind) the encounter was overwhelming even with a party of five 10th to 11th level PCs (time stop, dispels, death magic, half party dead). We barely got beyond the entry area before having to turn back. The ogres and giants in the mines north of the city are still challenging for a small party (3) of PCs. And water elementals in Murbant caves, well, I think everyone hates drowning. Instant death for some PC classes pretty much.

b. Are they easier at certain levels than others?
Response: I'd say the encounters in Bez are all tough for lower (1-4), and even for mid level (5-8) the deeper parts of the sewers and tomb are tough. But not overwhelmingly tough, but a good challenge sort of tough. At 9 and higher, things got easier there, but there were still a few things that popped up (lycan boars, goblin chiefs) that were tough.

c. For you with high-level PCs, are encounters a challenge at all anymore?
Response: See Nethwatch Keep description in 1a. For a party of 3-4 PCs of 11-13th level, the Nethjet barrows (besides the Spider Demon) are pretty straightforward, but not totally without peril.

d. Does partying make encounters too easy? Should more or higher-level creature be spawned when in a party?
Response: Depends on what's being spawned. Too many high level casters attacking the party, and they're toast no matter how large a party. Or even just a couple of high level casters with the right spells can put a big dent in a party and wipe some of the party out.

2. Creature selection;
a. Do you think Thay needs more creature varieties created?
Response: Sure, that would be great. One of the fun things was the first time I saw a Dread Warrior, and had no idea how challenging it was or what it might do. And I like the descriptions put in, so it gives some flavor to the monsters too and ties them to the world.

b. If so, at what level(s) should these creatures be created?
Response: I think there are plenty of lower level creatures it seems. I'd say go for ones appropriate for levels 8 and up. Or maybe just take some (ogres, giants) that would be appropriate for higher levels that don't really seem to be out there too much (outside of the mines anyway) and make a place for them. I'm not sure where in Thay (not being familiar with it outside of the game) would be appropriate if any place. I wouldn't want to have them used just to use them if they don't fit in Thay. But maybe they could be re-named or re-skinned if some other similar creature would be more appropriate.

Other comment: If there were other places to adventure for level 8-13 PCs, that might help a bit. It could keep people from revisiting the same old, same old, places. There are several places on the map list on the Thay map in game, but I'm not even sure if they are all able to be traveled to even though there are directions to them. Some more rumors of other ruins or confirmation as to which places are worth going to explore might be nice.

One thing that might keep PC levels down a little is use of the enchanting forge, since that costs XP in addition to gold.

Alright, enough on and on and on from me.

[mineption]

1. Encounters.
a. Are the encounters in general too easy? Too tough?
b. Are they easier at certain levels than others?

I'll get into detail on my opinion on each dungeon:

Bezantur Sewers
Recommended party members: 1-2

Bezantur Tombs
Recommended party members: 1-2

High Road Abandoned Mines
Recommended party members: 1-3

Thasselen Cemetary
Recommended party members: 1-2

Thasselen Citadel Dungeons
Recommended party members: 2-4

Murbant Sea Caves
Recommended party members: 2-3

Keep of Sorrows Warriors' Crypt
Recommended party members: 2-3

Nethjet Barrows/Catacombs
Recommended party members: 1-2

Nethwatch Keep Basement
Recommended party members: 4-5

c. For you with high-level PCs, are encounters a challenge at all anymore?
d. Does partying make encounters too easy? Should more or higher-level creature be spawned when in a party?

The challenge is still there but it definitely is easier. It all depends on where you go and how many party members you have. I put in a "recommended party members" number on each dungeon listed above, and if you brought more than that number to the dungeon it felt too easy. Too hard if you brought less. I think in the higher levels this number is more on the lower end (so bringing anyone along on a Bezantur Tombs run feels too easy). So there is a certain degree of challenge that is not scaling properly depending on the party and level.

I would welcome more challenging encounters when in a party, but I would hope that the rewards are scaled accordingly. Currently if you were to form a party of 5 similar-level companions, the challenge of encounters would go down significantly but the amount of loot you get is cut down by about 1/5 (as well as the chance of you finding the quest item you're after, assuming all members are looking for something). The exp and quest-item-finding bonus helps alleviate this. However, if the challenge of the encounters does not go down with a group, then some other benefit should be there to keep encouraging groups.

2. Creature selection.
a. Do you think Thay needs more creature varieties created?

Yes, for the same reasons you've stated.

b. If so, at what level(s) should these creatures be created?

Generally the high levels, but also at certain levels in certain dungeons to help alleviate the inconsistencies in desired difficulty.

3. Upper level PCs
Thoughts/comments?

Considering the amount of work ahead of you and how much you've done, I think it was the right decision. I'm just thankful that you gave us the heads up.

Edit by Thayan: Removed 'spoilers' about specific dungeon details to DM Forum.

[Balanor]

Thanks for the feedback from both of you. mineption - I removed the 'spoilers' about the dungeon particulars, however I've pasted them in the DM forum so we do have them. I just don't want any new players to get too much of a feel for what they may encounter in the dungeons as the progress. Sorry about not being more specific on it to begin with, but if anyone wants to post detailed examples in their replies, please PM me rather than post here.

Anyway though, to throw out some of my thoughts on this, I think as we potentially get more creatures in the encounter system, this may be eased.

I don’t want to get too technical, but essentially the way things work is the system encounters a specific DC of monster to spawn, and then it looks to the tables for the type of monster (which can be very general like 'undead' or very specific like 'zombie'). In many of the tables, we do not have monsters at each and every level – for example there may be no DC 5, 6, 7, 8, etc zombies, so anyone that would spawn xzombies at those levels actually spawns a level 4 zombie (if that's the highest level one available).

To err on the side of caution, I round down with a few exceptions (like the Nethwatch Keep Dungeons which are meant to be difficult, for example). With more creatures - especially at higher levels to round things out, I do not believe encounters will end up being quite so easy or jumping from ‘easy’ at one level to ‘difficult’ at the next level.

Also, thanks to all of you who have volunteered to help so far. I will be sending out PMs and e-mails to you later today.

[kta]

a. Are the encounters in general too easy? Too tough?

This depends to a great part on random enchantments some creatures have - I frequently encounter perma-hasted-immune-to-knockdown wereboars that put up a hard fight, or creatures that can't be harmed with the available weapons.
When I think of the Greater Werewolfs or Werewolf Lords - they put up quite a challenge as well and some of the blooded creatures too. While walking some dungeon alone and facing 2 Thayan Knights, a Red Wizard, a Apprentice and two Legionnaires and some chiefs at once is a no-win situation even for some rather powerful PC's.:P

c. For you with high-level PCs, are encounters a challenge at all anymore?

Depends on the place - take the Bezantur Crypt for example, the only encounters that scale with a PC after say lvl 10 are the mercs...

2. Creature selection. Thay uses mostly default NWN creatures in our spawns, with approximately 10% custom created (such Dread Warriors, Blooded Creatures, Spellstitched, etc). The variety of default creatures with a CR of 12 or greater really starts to drop off quickly, which I believe are making things too easy/boring for level 12+ PCs. So I ask;
a. Do you think Thay needs more creature varieties created?

Oh yes I would like that! And I have a suggestion how to... when you think of the PW's vampire system - why not vary the vampires a PC can encounter based on that system?
Instead of common vampires and a occasional vampire warrior we could have all kinds of vampires, Fledgelings, Masters, Elders even epics and so on... also wizards, rogues, clerics. You name it. This system could be adopted to virtualy all kinds of encounters.

b. If so, at what level(s) should these creatures be created?

Well, all levels could be affected but the mid to highs should be the first target.

3. Upper level PCs. I am fairly certain (95%) I will be temporarily capping PC levels at 15 in the next couple days until more upper-level creatures can be created which will provide more challenges to PCs above level 12+. Depending on whether or not any help is received, the cap may last only days, weeks, or potentially more than a month. When or if a cap is instituted, creature creation will become the top design priority, however any XP accummulation more than 1500 over what is required to get to level 15 will be lost. I know this probably won't be popular with PCs at or nearing this cap, but I want to be forthcoming with this as I truly believe you will have more fun if encounters are not so much grinding out the destruction of 100 skeleton warriors but instead engaging in a difficult struggle that uses most or all of your magic, strength, or tactics on 10 relatively difficult 'greater skeleton wariors' (for example).
Thoughts/comments?

Sounds good!

Another thing that can be used to make overland encounters seem more "real" and challenging: I always found it strange to meet a direwolf and a malar panther hunting in a "pack" instead why not create real dangerous wolfpacks or groups of "fitting" animals and make them more dangerous for higher lvls?

KTA

[theredknight_x]

For the most part the dungeons difficulty remains well for me, variety would be a good idea.

One of the things I feel is that we have alot of tombs and alot of undead encounters. I would like to see some type variety in the dungeons.

The caves were a fresh breath of air from fighting undead and goblins over and over again. The overland travel encounters make me wonder how any trade gets done in Thay with those random monsters @_@ Sheesh

Perhaps some areas where Abberations or even Construct dungeons? And though I know the overland travel system is somewhat random it would be nice to have some more static areas where caves of earth elementals, mephits, troll lairs, things like that. They don't even have to be significantly large. A Blighted Druid grove is one idea for a dungeon that isn't a 'Dungeon', full of dire animals and blighted creatures. Another idea is portals to certain planes. An area where a party could travel say to The Elemental Plane of Fire or the Abyss for some encounters for higher level PC's to fight demons/devils/celestials or something.

[LooseWilly]

...

The caves were a fresh breath of air from fighting undead and goblins over and over again. The overland travel encounters make me wonder how any trade gets done in Thay with those random monsters @_@ Sheesh

Perhaps some areas where Abberations or even Construct dungeons? And though I know the overland travel system is somewhat random it would be nice to have some more static areas where caves of earth elementals, mephits, troll lairs, things like that. They don't even have to be significantly large. A Blighted Druid grove is one idea for a dungeon that isn't a 'Dungeon', full of dire animals and blighted creatures. Another idea is portals to certain planes. An area where a party could travel say to The Elemental Plane of Fire or the Abyss for some encounters for higher level PC's to fight demons/devils/celestials or something.

I agree with the idea of "random dungeons", even if they're "mini-dungeons" in the outdoors. I like the Blighted Druid Grove idea... and the portal idea... but I'd like to also suggest the idea of occasional outposts of various factions... a Temple of Talona that's gathering forces for... whatever Talona disciples do... maybe even just insert a couple variant outdoor maps with the entrances, and maybe have the encounters on those maps keyed to whatever the "mini-dungeon" is populated with (a Gruumsh temple leads to more orc encounters, and less elf mercs... on that map)...

Add in some manticores &/or gorgons in the vicinity of the entrance... and even the higher level characters will have to be wary.

Some increased rewards to go with the increased danger would be nice. Some sort of implicating documents of ties of the Talona Temple (for instance) with a "rogue priest" of the Bezantur temple, which could lead to the high priest of the temple, upon receipt of the information, sending the players out looking for the "rogue priest" who is usurping the high priest's power by setting up a parallel church... might be complicated... but if a random building or set of outdoor directions could be fixed as a result... it could make for a longer term "quest" from a mere random encounter on an outdoor map...

(Of course... the option of the players being so evil as to then try to join the "rogue priest", or whatever, and then try to turn around and kill the High Priest... who is then replaced by the "rogue priest"... well, such duplicity is probably very difficult to script... but worth a thought.)

[Balanor]

Just wanted to let everyone know that I will be trying to implement some of these suggestions in the near future. Thanks for your ideas and comments so far.

[Githzerai Monk]

1)

a) The encounters are a combination of the two, sometimes the monsters can be insane, other times they just need to be whacked a few times. Sometimes they'll get a very lucky crit or you'll get a terrible save result that can make things tricky, but otherwise their fine.

b) Hard at lower levels, particularly for the non melee classes, fighter gets very easy, then gets harder, wizard gets difficult then becomes much easier.

For both a and b, it varies quite a bit depending on class.

c) lvl 8 wizard Muarin doesn't have much trouble unless the dice go bad, whether he's high level is another matter.

d) A party should get higher level monsters than their average level, perhaps it's avg. lvl +1(or some other number)? Aristotle sums it up quite nicely with: "The whole is more than the sum of its parts."

2)

a) More variety would be nice, fighting the same old monsters every time gets dull, perhaps the name says what it looks like rather than "skeleton mage" and if the models were to be slightly randomized, it could make what it's wielding and what it does part of the challenge... seeing what it does (of course a rat shouldn't look like a dragon, but minor changes are good)

Perhaps the database of monsters could have all humans under one table and all mages under another (one monster can fit into multiple tables) and you spawn things based on category and CR as currently done, but there are a lot more random options added in, like a mage appearance which is actually a rogue trying to fool you(or something like that, clerics aren't always going to look different from a warrior if they're both wearing standard armor, so why make it so obvious to a PC?).

b) All levels could do with a bit of variety, However with Maurin, there are several challenges available: Zombie lords, Skeleton warriors, <humanoid type> chieftan, half dragon clerics. this isn't a lot of different things to deal with, and most of them are common enough that I've worked out how to deal with them.

3) If theres even less possibly challenging creatures than there is now, good idea.

Small idea to help those that can endure more adventuring than others:

Previous kills in last X amount of time or since the last rest all add together to give you a modifier to xp and/or loot.

Say I clear one dungeon with the following examples:

1 I rest every so often at places where I can rest
2 I clear the dungeon without resting

Which of these was harder to achieve? That is the basic idea of what seems like something that should be rewarded, or certain checkpoints in existing dungeons to award PCs who don't make repeated small tries of the tombs, but go and kill everything in the bottom of the place.

[heather]

Think there could be a few tweeks to the system after seeing a few repeated things and something completely different...

Earlier today we had a good sized group with no one above 10th level and while in the central sewers a half-dragon sorcerer turned up as a spawn and promptly killed nearly everyone and potentially perm'd one character....

Another thing i've seen happening more than a few was some random bonuses being added onto monsters.... Nearly all the time while i'm sneaking and even at times sneaking with a lycan character that bumps up the sneaking related skills even higher i'm still being spotted and chased by monsters as low as rats. Also a few times have come up where monsters get random immunities, today there was a goblin shaman that was immune to sneak attacks for some odd reason, it had no buffs or anything... And I had a few other times where other lesser monsters have had similar for no apparent reason.