[Balanor]

Hey everyone! It’s a sensitive subject, but one that has been put off here for what is probably far too long: How do we improve the balance between classes in NWN? And I mean specifically in regard to gameplay in the Thay PW.

In general, I have been ‘OK’ with how classes function in NWN...for the most part...and have intentionally tried to keep them as close to NWN implementation as possible. It’s what those of us playing NWN have gotten familiar with over the years, and I don’t feel that Thay should have an entirely new way of doing classes that results in people who play here needing to essentially learn a ‘new set of rules’.

But over the years, a few things have come up and recommendations have been made, and implemented, that have changed how NWN originally implemented the D&D classes. And those occurred because I am OK with class modifications when they either 1) move the class more in-line with official D&D rules or 2) are needed because a class as implemented in NWN is either broken/useless or unbalanced.

I fully intend our next hak update, which may be our last, to include virtually all necessary class balance modifications to classes that I am capable of performing. So along those lines, I want to get YOUR opinions on what classes, if any, could use some attention and/or modification. Which classes do you see seldom played? What classes to people seem to gravitate to more than others? Why is that? What do you think could be done to even the balance between them? What have you seen done on other PWs in regard to class balance you really liked? What, if anything, backfired? I am primarily looking for ideas that move a class closer to D&D implementation, or else convince me they are needed because the class is essentially broken/overpowered/underpowered/implemented incorrectly in NWN/etc.

When you provide suggestions, please be as specific as possible. Stating a problem you see with a class, without providing any recommendation to address it is not really that helpful. ;) And, as always, I ask everyone keep the conversation as civil and ‘positive’ as possible (even though you may feel very strongly that something sucks or someone else’s opinion is horrible).

To assist with the discussion, the following are links to sources for each of the Prestige Classes. I like how this site cites its sources, and from what I can tell, seems to be pretty accurate with the information on there -
Arcane Archer - http://dndtools.pw/classes/arcane-archer/
Assassin - http://dndtools.pw/classes/assassin/
Blackguard - http://dndtools.pw/classes/blackguard/
Divine Champion (Champion of Torm) - http://dndtools.pw/classes/divine-champion/
Dragon Discipline (Red Dragon Disciple) - http://dndtools.pw/classes/dragon-disciple/
Dwarven Defender - http://dndtools.pw/classes/dwarven-defender/
Harper Scout - http://dndtools.pw/classes/harper-scout/
Pale Master - http://dndtools.pw/classes/pale-master/
Purple Dragon Knight - http://dndtools.pw/classes/players-guide...on-knight/
Shadowdancer - http://dndtools.pw/classes/shadowdancer/
Shifter - http://dndtools.pw/classes/shifter/
Weapon Master - http://dndtools.pw/classes/weapon-master/

[TheShadowEntity]

I am actually ok with classes, but there is one thing i really think thay could use as an improvement.

Right now clothing modifications are sorta limited, especially compared to other servers out there. I would really like to see some more variety in thayen clothes but yeah... other than that i'm pretty happy actually :)

As far as what has backfired? well.. I know there was at least one server i was on years ago (no longer up) where they tried to make all the classes as equal as possible in balance... Sorta 4e style dumming it down per say. It didn't work well and people started to complain about nerfing wizards and overpowering fighters. Guess my point is, Classes are all supposed to have there own ups and downs and we should remember that.

Sometimes a powerful pc isn't the best one either My current pc Sila is the first bard i have ever seriously played and at first i was very put off at how she could not solo a single dungeon. However over time they have become my favorite pc on this server because of the wonderful rp that has been able to develop due to her strengths and weaknesses.

Another thing i enjoyed from other servers (especially AR) was how RDD could be any dragon type and was not restricted to just red or just fire. I know i personally requested that Sila be a shadow dragon disciple when i first made but was told that's not done here. (If that gets changed i am totally requesting Sila be changed to the intended type though :P)

so yeah... my big suggestion? Cloths :P

The rest is more like ideas..

[Bertram Anders]

Let's keep this thread on topic, please. I'll post my thoughts on this later.

[Animayhem]

What would be helpful is a link to what the classes currently are and what classes are closer to the d+d rules that Thay is based on.
Or if not, what specific things have been mentioned to bring this discussion up?

Marister is a pure ranger. You are unable to add skills to UMD without going a few levels rogue. So he has been using the forge. I find the inability to do so and not being able to use scrolls or wands ironic when you can cast spells and use sequencer items.

Already there are things in play which help balance things:

The enchanting forges can give people almost unlimited access to other class skills.

Lich, lycan and vampire hunters keeps these powerful creatures on their toes. Some other places have these creatures virtually immortal.

Modifiction to the HIPs

Modifications to some higher spells which require components

I like the fact that classes have at least one or two unique things.

[Pluto]

I wanted to bring attention to the following:

So along those lines, I want to get YOUR opinions on what classes, if any, could use some attention and/or modification. Which classes do you see seldom played? What classes to people seem to gravitate to more than others? Why is that? What do you think could be done to even the balance between them? What have you seen done on other PWs in regard to class balance you really liked? What, if anything, backfired? I am primarily looking for ideas that move a class closer to D&D implementation, or else convince me they are needed because the class is essentially broken/overpowered/underpowered/implemented incorrectly in NWN/etc.

And now to provide a couple of examples:

Why do melee types gravitate more towards RDD/Weaponmaster over the Blackguard/Divine Champion/Purple Dragon Knight route for prestige classes? What can be done to balance that out?

Why do Harpers rarely ever take any levels in Harper Scout? Do you feel the prestige class is broken? If so, what do you think could be done to fix it so Harpers will take levels in their prestige class?

Is there anything wrong with the Dwarven Defender PrC or is it just due to a shortage of dwarves that it rarely gets played?

etc.

These are just some examples of discussion, by all means if you have some ideas of your own please feel free to add.

[Hellstrom]

Thanks for the specific examples to help guide the conversation Pleiade.

I think there's little to no problem with any of the basic classes, except maybe Bard, but I know people play them so maybe that's more my personal prejudice. No offense intended Karilynn :)

I see more problems with PrCs. The 3 most popular are WM, RDD, and SD. The benefits for each are simple to understand and very valuable. WMs kick ass, but it takes a while to get the full benefit of the class (WM7 specifically), so I don't think it's unbalanced. The same thing applies to RDD, the benefits are gained across all 10 RDD levels, plus there's that pesky notoriety requirement, so again... not overpowered. SD probably is a bit unbalanced in that while you have a notoriety requirement, you only have to take one level of SD to get the best feature of the class. Maybe we should change that and they should only get HiPS at a higher level. Though maybe add more skills or skill points to the class to counterbalance that?

I think there are problems with CoT (DC), PDK, and DD PrCs, foremost of which is that they feel way too specific. Like someone else came up with a character conception and I'd be stuck playing it. Frankly I've never investigated them and don't know much about them.

For me though there were two classes that immediately sprang to mind when I read Thayan's original post, Blackguard and Assassin. I'll talk about each separately, but they are both classes that I have considered playing but each time when I've taken a close look at the class features I've kind of come away feeling... meh. They just both feel underpowered/underfeatured compared to other more popular classes. Even if nothing comes of it I like that this conversation got me to take a closer look at doing some deeper comparisons.

So, I'll try to put the "meh" feeling into words as best I can. I consider my play style a little, but not too powergamey, but I'm going to have to talk about the problems I see in a powergamey way here, sorry.

Blackguard - Here's the description of the class: "A blackguard epitomizes evil. They are nothing short of a mortal fiend, a black knight with the foulest sort of reputation. Many refer to blackguards as anti-paladins due to their completely evil nature. A blackguard is an evil villain of the first order, equivalent in power to the righteous paladin, but devoted to the powers of darkness."

I love the idea of the blackguard, especially in Thay but I've never played one here. Why? Because the actuality doesn't really match that description. The idea is really cool but the implementation strikes me as not so great. They're one of only two classes in Thay that get to use poisons, but I've never used poisons so I can't say how good that is. I'd love to hear opinions on that...

Other than that they get some anti-paladin-ish abilities like Smite Good and undead summoning and a few spell-like abilities that aren't really anything to shout about. Looking at the summons, at 3rd level they get to summon a ghast. But that means they're at least 9th level, assuming all previous levels are fighter. The ghast is AC 21, 60hp http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Ghast_(summon) and how long is that likely to last or how much help is it going to be against the creatures you meet at 9th level? It feels underpowered (though admittedly I haven't done a close comparison of that with other classes). BGs get a few spell-like abilities, but paladins get spells up to 4th level. BGs also get some minor sneak attack damage, but since they're pretty likely to be the tank in a party or definitely the tank when soloing, how often will those be used?

To me the problem with the blackguard class is that it's got some good individual features, but they're very specific and don't seem to hang together well. If the existing features and some new ones could be made into BG specific feats so you could customize your BG how you like, that would be amazing.

Some specific ideas:
* Feel free to drop the sneak attacks or make that a BG chooseable feat.
* Bump up the power of the summons or somehow include both BG levels and levels prior to BG in the calc of how powerful the summons are (i.e. even as a fighter you were honing your evil powers)
* Give them actual spell-casting powers like Paladins get
* More/better spell-like abilities
* Give them a sparkly special snowflake feature at high BG levels like the glowing red eyes or maybe an aura of darkness. This could be visual-only or have some actual effect.

Give the class just a couple of those and I'd be first in line to play a blackguard. I hope this is useful. I'll finish this for now and do some more thinking about my problems with assassin.

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Oh, another point about Bg... why are Hide 5 and Cleave part of the requirements for the class? Hide is useless if based off a fighter, Cleave is very likely useless if based off anything else.

The requirements should be: Any Evil, Cha 10+ (?), worship of an evil deity, no changing deity or become Fallen (Saved? Redeemed? Wimpy?)

[Hellstrom]

Assassin - "The assassin is a master of dealing quick, lethal blows. Assassins often function as spies, informants, killers for hire, or agents of vengeance. Their skill in a variety of dark arts allows them to carry out missions of death with shocking, terrifying precision. Unlike the blackguard, the assassin is not evil due to devotion to an evil power, but rather due to a complete lack of morals or ethics."

Ok, except assassins are really just rogues that know fewer skills and have a few minor extra powers. I have played a character in Thay who took Assassin, it was that experience that showed me how "meh" the assassin is.

So let's assume I want to play an Assassin, I have to take a minimum of 5 levels of something else prior to it to get 8 ranks of Hide & MS. And for the sake of argument, let's assume they're all rogue levels because I think that's the standard path. Monks actually make AMAZING assassins... as least as long as they don't dilute their monk levels with levels in the Assassin class. Let's bask in that irony for a moment. Ok, done. Irony enjoyed.

Assassins get Use Poison, so first, let's talk poisons. I'd really, really like to hear how effective players think they are. I know poisons can be hideously expensive to purchase and use willy-nilly, but they at least they drop as treasure sometimes. If the consensus is that poisons just aren't too useful, then bumping up the power a smidge or how long a blade stays envenomed might make both assassins and blackguards more viable.

Now my rogue/assassin is progressing in levels. At level 3 assassin (8 total levels) I get Ghostly Visage, a 1/day spell that's... just barely ok for someone at 8th level and it will become progressively more useless as levels increase. I also get a poison save I'll discuss below, and... Uncanny Dodge I. Which would be great except I already got it at Rog3. In fact, if I keep progressing I can max out my Assassin levels and then what? Well, I go back to Rogue levels and find out that Uncanny Dodge 2 & 3 are also duplicated between Rogue and Assassin. THREE duplicated feats when feats are so valuable? Painful.

Like I said you also get a minor bonus to Poison saves. Ok, so at level 6 assassin (11 total levels) you'd have a +3 to poison saves. That's pretty minor, especially when you realize that a monk of 11th level just became completely immune to poisons.

What else do you get with Assassin? You get Death Attacks, which really are just very slightly improved Sneak Attacks. A Fortitude save or be paralyzed for a short time. And oh BTW "A death attack only triggers a paralysis save if the target is not engaged in combat". So if you're in a group it's really no better than a sneak attack, and if you're solo... better pray that the target is paralyzed b/c you can't stand toe-to-toe with much.

Beyond that, Darkness at level 5, Invisibility at level 7, Imp Invisibility at level 9. Those all might just seem barely ok, but now add in the 5 levels you had to take previously and rethink it. I just hit 10 total levels, I'm fighting some pretty tough stuff and I get DARKNESS? Holy crap that's useless. And oh BTW I'll probably have an invisibility item long before I get it as a class feat.

Having gone through all that I think I now hate the Assassin class more than ever. But as a bonus on top of all those not-so-great class features, by taking Assassin levels I'm losing 4 skill points per level over taking Rogue levels, but the skills list for assassin is almost as long as for rogue. Ouch. I say "No thank you, sir!"

How to fix Assassin? Tough call. The problem is that a true assassin generally works alone and relies on killing swiftly and silently. The assassin class really can't do that as it's designed.

Here are some ideas:
* Get rid of all Uncanny Dodges and replace them with Bonus Feats that allow Rogue feats to be taken including Uncanny Dodge.
* Better yet get rid of all Assassin feats and make them Bonus Feat choices instead.
* Create new assassin feats like
+ Expert Poisoner (all poisons used by the character are harder to save against).
+ Sniper (Any ranged attack by the character has a chance of being a Death Attack)
+ Throat-slitter (Death attack with a dagger does extra damage)
* Make Death Attack not quite so useless. Please.
+ Maybe consider the blade poisoned on any successful Death attack?
+ Harder fort saves?
+ Death Attacks follow the same rules as sneak attacks (i.e. They work even against foes in combat)?
+ Most scary/powerful: Give death attacks a chance of insta-kill based on Assassin level.

I think I'll try to tackle Shifter in the next couple days. I've always/never wanted to play a Shifter ;)

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An alternative idea - rather than making Death Attack more powerful out of the box, add Assassin-specific feats that allow them to grow it in power OR just make it a sneak attack that the assassin feats build on.

Let me know if that's not clear :)

[DarkRanger]

I wanted to bring attention to the following:

So along those lines, I want to get YOUR opinions on what classes, if any, could use some attention and/or modification. Which classes do you see seldom played? What classes to people seem to gravitate to more than others? Why is that? What do you think could be done to even the balance between them? What have you seen done on other PWs in regard to class balance you really liked? What, if anything, backfired? I am primarily looking for ideas that move a class closer to D&D implementation, or else convince me they are needed because the class is essentially broken/overpowered/underpowered/implemented incorrectly in NWN/etc.

And now to provide a couple of examples:

Why do melee types gravitate more towards RDD/Weaponmaster over the Blackguard/Divine Champion/Purple Dragon Knight route for prestige classes? What can be done to balance that out?
Blackguard forces a person to distribute ability scores oddly to really shine(high charisma fighter type), Divine Champion to me seems fine as is for a second layer of fighter advancement, but people favor the extra damage over high saves and a once per day heal/anti undead attack. The only suggested change that springs to mind for me is forcing them to choose a deity and maintain the proper alignment or lose class abilities. As for Purple Dragon Knight, not sure what to say about it. Removal of alignment restriction and/or granting them fortitude/will or even all as primary saves might get one or two people to create one.(Perhaps accompanied by a name change to something more generic. Bodyguard because of the heroic shield feat? Commander because of the group buffs? I can't come up with something perfect for a new name)

Why do Harpers rarely ever take any levels in Harper Scout? Do you feel the prestige class is broken? If so, what do you think could be done to fix it so Harpers will take levels in their prestige class?
Can't really comment directly on this one.

Is there anything wrong with the Dwarven Defender PrC or is it just due to a shortage of dwarves that it rarely gets played?
It looks good to me, I think it's just a lack of dwarf PCs in general.

etc.

These are just some examples of discussion, by all means if you have some ideas of your own please feel free to add.

Also pale master is severely underwhelming due to losing caster level, and only useful in 40 level power builds, though retaining full progression would create the opposite problem of why NOT take it.

For the blackguards

* Give them actual spell-casting powers like Paladins get(this is in line with pnp from what I hear)

Assassins could be given full BAB progression to reflect the fact that they're more focused killers than standard rogues. Also more skill points, though maybe not as many as rogues still. Agree with Hellstrom's feat related suggestions, also an idea about death attack, perhaps change it to;

Chance of instant kill against a target not engaged in combat who isn't aware of your presence.(not sure what a good DC would be, though a reflex save would be most logical I think)

In other words, the perfect skill to assassinate with.

[Hellstrom]

Blackguard forces a person to distribute ability scores oddly to really shine(high charisma fighter type)

I totally agree, but so does Paladin and people play those. But a first level Paladin is a level 1 character. A 1st level Blackguard is a level 7 character. That's quite a few levels to wade through before that CHA bonus has much of an effect on anything except the ladies. And you've only got 10 possible levels of BG vs 20 of Paladin.

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The more I think about it the more I think BG should just be an evil paladin with some cool evil feats. And a special snowflake bonus :D

[DarkRanger]

Blackguard forces a person to distribute ability scores oddly to really shine(high charisma fighter type)

I totally agree, but so does Paladin and people play those. But a first level Paladin is a level 1 character. A 1st level Blackguard is a level 7 character. That's quite a few levels to wade through before that CHA bonus has much of an effect on anything except the ladies. And you've only got 10 possible levels of BG vs 20 of Paladin.

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The more I think about it the more I think BG should just be an evil paladin with some cool evil feats. And a special snowflake bonus :D

And full casting including holy sword, so basically paladin beats blackguard.