[Sundraoi]

I would suggest moving the feat rather than starting a trend of mechanically enforced "valid" builds.

If you move the feat to 3rd or 5th level, a person is still forced to take X number of levels to get the feat, the agreed upon reason people take the SD class. How is that any different than forcing them to take X levels of the PrC if the feat is offered at 1st level? They are still forced to take X number of levels in SD regardless.

[Purulent Carcass]

They aren't forced to do anything Sundraoi, if your only goal is to get HiPS then you would have to take extra levels if we were using DarkRangers soloution. There is no one pointing a gun at their head, making them take levels.. While I am not agreeing or disagreeing with the soloution, I think claiming it is forced is a bit much. Taking a PrC for a single feat is the problem at hand that is being addressed so coming up with a valid system that hopefully sticks to normal D&D rules is the goal here.

Perhaps what would work is a gradient that allows HiPS to get better as levels progress? At first level when you get it, maybe it takes longer to work? Raise the PrC levels and that time shortens?

[Animayhem]

I have a question. I have not played many Prc classes in general.

Is the SD the only PrC class by which you get what some see as a high benefit by taking only one level? What other PrC's offer this? If other PrC's maybe require you to take a few levels like three to get a benefit equivalent to HIPs, then I could see as Ranger and Carcass suggestion of an increase in HiPS effectiveness possibly by third level.

If not then instead of nerfing the HiPS maybe make some other PrC levels attractive for people who maybe might just want to take one.

Personally I have no problem with how people build their characters as we all are different.

[Sundraoi]

If they want to get HiPS then yes, they would be forced to take those levels regardless of whether the feat is pushed back levels or if they are required to take X amount of levels. And no, they are not hog tied and literally forced to take those levels, but if they want HiPS it would be required. So close enough. :p

I'd like to add that I don't see a problem with DarkRanger's suggestion if the notoriety requirement is removed for the SD class. As it is now, you are required to wait longer than the game engine requires to take SD. This is because of the HiPS feat taken at first level. If the notoriety is left in play in addition to pushing the HiPS feat back you are making them wait again for the feat. This is why I think it should be allowed at first with X levels to be taken immediately upon taking the class. The SD would be taking more levels of its class but not be delayed, yet again, in getting its primary feat.

[DarkRanger]

The problem is more philosophical than mechanical. One would be modifying the classes, the other would be telling players how to use them, which is something other servers have done with things like "each class must be within x levels of each other", and is one of the many reasons I never played another server for more than a few weeks.

[Balanor]

Thanks for the comments everyone. There's lots of food for thought here.

One thing I would like to mention, at least with how things are currently implemented now; is the seldom-used ability to turn off XP gains. If someone uses that and is willing to wait at level 7 for X amount of time while they become notorious enough to take Shadowdancer, they could still get HiPS as low as level 8. Notoriety is not guaranteed to make someone wait for higher levels to take it....just more likely since few people turn off XP.

Use of this tactic/option, while I don't know if anyone has ever done it for SD, is another reason why I am considering removing the notoriety requirements for SD and RDDs.

[Hellstrom]

One thing I would like to mention, at least with how things are currently implemented now; is the seldom-used ability to turn off XP gains. If someone uses that and is willing to wait at level 7 for X amount of time while they become notorious enough to take Shadowdancer, they could still get HiPS as low as level 8. Notoriety is not guaranteed to make someone wait for higher levels to take it....just more likely since few people turn off XP.

Use of this tactic/option, while I don't know if anyone has ever done it for SD, is another reason why I am considering removing the notoriety requirements for SD and RDDs.

Well, this is getting a bit off-topic, but I've considered using this for Garr when he hits 10th or is near to it. However, I think I recall seeing a couple of differing statements about whether or not turning it off actually increases the rate of earning notoriety. If it doesn't increase notoriety then there's not much point turning off XP gains because at least you can always use the XP for the forge while you're waiting for enough notoriety.

[DarkRanger]

It doesn't increase notoriety, but you still might want to use it to make sure you get your RDD levels early. Levels past 15 come very slowly, and I'm not sure how easily you could regulate staying 10 with the forge.

[Hellstrom]

Well, actually I want to stay 9th level, not 10th.

But all I have to do is to simply not level up when I get the ding and the replaced portrait. If I use the forge then it should keep me at ninth level and I can continue to use the forge to create items and then regain XP until I get the ding again. Alternately I could even level to 10th and gain some xp before creating a more powerful forged item that will lower me back to 9th level, but either way there really doesn't seem to be any point in using Stop XP Gains since you're never FORCED to take a level.

Unless there's something I'm not understanding about the xp, forge, or Stop XP Gains feature... which I'd be more than happy to hear about :)

[TheShadowEntity]

Not sure if this has been brought up yet but... Has anyone considered warlock?