[Animayhem]

Great job on the posting of the laws. However there is no mention of fines or are these listed on the legion boards? They could help deter crimes. There is still opportunity for legionnaires to up the ante like a bribe and would give them a base to do so.

Lets say PCa walks around with a weapon exposed, refuses to listen to a legionnaire and is told to pay $$$ gold, they pay the gold and leave. PCa seems dense and again walks around with weapon exposed, is caught by a different legionnaire and is charged more gold than before.

I am pleased with the amount of tracking done in regards to the new death mark permadead system as there is great potential for abuse. However so far I really have not experinced power trippers here. :D

[Balanor]

The amount of the fines (well, let's be honest - in Thay they are 'bribes' so something worse doesn't occur to the individual!) are up to the enforcing individual as well as the negotiating ability of the other person(s) involved. I see it as an opportunity for some RP. Not all fines need be $$$ either. Maybe the person is 'fined' by being told to recover item X that the legionnaire was instead sent to recover. Or maybe the 'fine' is that they have to help the legionnaire clear out the Crypts in preparation for a burial, and they only get 25% of the treasure rather than a 50/50 split. Or, in your example, maybe the fine is that they getting off with a warning the first time, the second time they pay X amount of gold, and the thrid time they get their weapon taken (that may be extreme - but hopefully I am getting the various options across).

I prefer to leave fines/bribes up to the individuals involved since Thayan Law is...how shall I say it...'flexible', at best. ;)

[Payne]

Permadeath has made its (limited) return. I really debated this one, and asked for input from the staff on this as well. But again, due to discussions here, I felt that bringing back the possibility of permanent death is needed to give pause to an individual that feels ‘Oh - I can mouth off to this Red Wizard because my PC can always respawn or come back from the Fugue’. Now, notorious individuals may place death marks on other characters. After an accumulation of death marks from different player’s characters, true (perma)death can occur from which the individual cannot return.

I can see the worth of this, but I have one reservation.

Seems to me, this is just a "let the biggest group win" tool. Which will have the "feel" of having to obay or risk perma death. Its fine in a setting like Thay and all. But I know that I would likely never make a character that would oppose the (I hate to say it like this, but best example) "popular crowd".

I trust Thay, the staff and the players. I can just see this being such a bully tactic, that it gives me shivers. To think my Red Wizard can be perma killed, from a group intent on grinding rp exp to boost noteriety, for no other reason than they can. Yikes.

No opposed, just...yikes

Edit to clarify worst case senario: A group forms on thain, new players (or ex-disgruntled) is mostly my thinking here. They see they can now perma kill anyone on the server they want, so they grind noteriety to the point they can put death marks on PC's, and now bully rp their way across the server knowing anyone who opposes them, is now dead.

[Balanor]

Permadeath has made its (limited) return. I really debated this one, and asked for input from the staff on this as well. But again, due to discussions here, I felt that bringing back the possibility of permanent death is needed to give pause to an individual that feels ‘Oh - I can mouth off to this Red Wizard because my PC can always respawn or come back from the Fugue’. Now, notorious individuals may place death marks on other characters. After an accumulation of death marks from different player’s characters, true (perma)death can occur from which the individual cannot return.

I can see the worth of this, but I have one reservation.

Seems to me, this is just a "let the biggest group win" tool. Which will have the "feel" of having to obay or risk perma death. Its fine in a setting like Thay and all. But I know that I would likely never make a character that would oppose the (I hate to say it like this, but best example) "popular crowd".

I trust Thay, the staff and the players. I can just see this being such a bully tactic, that it gives me shivers. To think my Red Wizard can be perma killed, from a group intent on grinding rp exp to boost noteriety, for no other reason than they can. Yikes.

No opposed, just...yikes

Understood. Any recommendation on how this perception/problem can be changed to avoid bullying or allow people to create characters that are not going to fall into a 'clique'? Like - it can only be used on characters at or above the same notoriety level as the person giving the mark, perhaps? Or something else?

But again - the issue of trying to help enforce a bit of restraint on new(er) PCs (or players) that expect they can ignore the established order/Red Wizards/PCs is the primary purpose of allowing death mark on PCs, and is something I'd like to maintain with any modification made to this (or if this feature modification dies as quickly as it was made).

[Animayhem]

Permadeath has made its (limited) return. I really debated this one, and asked for input from the staff on this as well. But again, due to discussions here, I felt that bringing back the possibility of permanent death is needed to give pause to an individual that feels ‘Oh - I can mouth off to this Red Wizard because my PC can always respawn or come back from the Fugue’. Now, notorious individuals may place death marks on other characters. After an accumulation of death marks from different player’s characters, true (perma)death can occur from which the individual cannot return.

I can see the worth of this, but I have one reservation.

Seems to me, this is just a "let the biggest group win" tool. Which will have the "feel" of having to obay or risk perma death. Its fine in a setting like Thay and all. But I know that I would likely never make a character that would oppose the (I hate to say it like this, but best example) "popular crowd".

I trust Thay, the staff and the players. I can just see this being such a bully tactic, that it gives me shivers. To think my Red Wizard can be perma killed, from a group intent on grinding rp exp to boost noteriety, for no other reason than they can. Yikes.

No opposed, just...yikes

Yes those were some of my concerns as well.

[Payne]

Best recommendation I can think of? Have the script include a message to staff, warning them who was putting out death marks and to whom.

If Group X is suddenly threatening to eliminate the serverbase, then the staff can be prewarned to remove the death marks if it doesnt make any "rp sense"

[Animayhem]

Best recommendation I can think of? Have the script include a message to staff, warning them who was putting out death marks and to whom.

If Group X is suddenly threatening to eliminate the serverbase, then the staff can be prewarned to remove the death marks if it doesnt make any "rp sense"

Yes this. Needs to have heavy rp to support it.

[Balanor]

Yes, this is already included in the current setup. The server logs get a message and I will be posting each entry every time it is used to the staff forums.

But if there are any other concerns or ideas as to how to ensure this is now abused, speak up please.

[Payne]

Perfect, thanks for that clarification.

As long as its backed by RP, and not just some bully tactic (that can be abused). Then how can I be oppposed?

Game on

[Githzerai Monk]

Permadeath has made its (limited) return. I really debated this one, and asked for input from the staff on this as well. But again, due to discussions here, I felt that bringing back the possibility of permanent death is needed to give pause to an individual that feels ‘Oh - I can mouth off to this Red Wizard because my PC can always respawn or come back from the Fugue’. Now, notorious individuals may place death marks on other characters. After an accumulation of death marks from different player’s characters, true (perma)death can occur from which the individual cannot return.

I can see the worth of this, but I have one reservation.

Seems to me, this is just a "let the biggest group win" tool. Which will have the "feel" of having to obay or risk perma death. Its fine in a setting like Thay and all. But I know that I would likely never make a character that would oppose the (I hate to say it like this, but best example) "popular crowd".

I trust Thay, the staff and the players. I can just see this being such a bully tactic, that it gives me shivers. To think my Red Wizard can be perma killed, from a group intent on grinding rp exp to boost noteriety, for no other reason than they can. Yikes.

No opposed, just...yikes

Understood. Any recommendation on how this perception/problem can be changed to avoid bullying or allow people to create characters that are not going to fall into a 'clique'? Like - it can only be used on characters at or above the same notoriety level as the person giving the mark, perhaps? Or something else?

But again - the issue of trying to help enforce a bit of restraint on new(er) PCs (or players) that expect they can ignore the established order/Red Wizards/PCs is the primary purpose of allowing death mark on PCs, and is something I'd like to maintain with any modification made to this (or if this feature modification dies as quickly as it was made).

Perhaps the marked player is notified of the identity of whoever marked them (or even a subset of the marks they have received). The mysterious allies might provide hourly (or any other unit of time) updates on the location of anyone who has marked them to marked players that fit certain requirements (marked character is x levels below the character who marked them etc.). These locations should be general and might not even say which of their enemies is in a given location like 'Someone in Nethjet wants you dead.' Or instead a notification could be given when entering an area that player is in (or when they enter the marked player's area) like 'Something feels wrong...'

Marking another PC could result in a temporary fully marked situation for the player who marked the other PC. If my PC stays dead once they're dead, and I manage to kill someone while I'm marked, I expect to not have to deal with them again. This still does not prevent the marking player sending others after the marked player.

Perhaps instead of a temporary mark on the PC who marked the other PC, the marked PC has on-kill 3-marks on any PC, so that if they kill anyone, they can elect to have them permanently killed. If assassins are sent my PCs way and my PC deals with them, my PC should be able to expect to not have to deal with that particular assassin again. Risks collateral damage to non-involved PCs, but means marking players have to pay other PCs much more to take the risk of assassinating a marked PC.

Perhaps the marking PC receives much more severe assassination attempts(tougher baddies and more frequent attacks, including while with other PCs too, perhaps?), as those with an interest in the marked player's survival seek to ruin the influence of those who would see the marked player dead.

Given that a player can only mark one character per 6 months, it requires three simultaneous marks to properly mark a PC and that we can trust players not to abuse it, most of the above is probably overkill. My personal choice would be giving marked PCs warning about the PCs who marked them, however the situation of a PC assassin going after a marked PC more than once concerns me.