05-09-2015, 08:52 AM
Follows are my thoughts on the posted changes:
I think the ECL penalty is over the top. Having 14 levels in some other class seems far preferable to RDD now. For powerbuilding, I would prefer an extra 4 levels than to take RDD. Especially in combination with the requirement for 5 levels in sorc/bard, this will surely lead to the character having to face some pretty rough monsters for their level.
I would recommend examining what (say) a fighter gets over 14 levels that makes it the equal of 10 levels of RDD. IMO the fighter largely comes out on top.
If the +4ECL is really necessary, what would a 14 level RDD class look like? Can this be implemented? It might make the workings of the class clearer to players.
Perhaps I can express myself better by saying that under this rationale, the ECL penalty for the stat bonuses is already sufficiently taken care of by needing 10 levels in RDD.
Bard seems a lot more viable than sorc, here. Assuming you go 10 RDD/sorc, you're basically 10 levels of slightly above average fighter without plentiful feats, with 5+ levels in sorc, which gives you a few spells, low DCs, low duration and low dispel resistance. Playing as a mellee whacker type, the sorc levels are baggage and vice versa. AND you face stuff at your level + 4.
All those harps should probably be made usable by harper scouts who aren't also bards. Harp of Haunting seems a bit of an odd choice. Animate dead doesn't sound like the Harper's style.
Perform should be a class skill.
If I have arcane and divine spellcasting, does this class act like mystic theurge? What if I take 3 paladin levels, 5 HS levels and then move on to 4th level paladin. Do I get the additional divine spellcasting on my paladin levels from the harper scout levels I already have?
The PnP implementation has favored enemies as evil organisations(rather than creature types), including the red wizards. Giving them favored enemy: Red wizards (and include legionnaires, other folks who are under the red's organisational structure etc.) would make this class a lot more interesting (though I've no idea about viability of implementation). And to make sure the bonus is relevant (and to account for the specificity of "red wizard" as compared to "humanoid"), use character level instead of class level for determining the bonus.
This looks very attractive for a melee mage now if what DarkRanger said is correct (spellcasting from pale master affects caster level (CL), ie duration of spells, as well as number of magic missiles/etc.) as you said (your post seems ambiguous to me). In vanilla nwn, pale masters don't get any caster level at all. Example: A 3 wizard/10 pale master casts up to level 4 spells (their spells/day is the same as that of a 3+10/2 = 8th level wizard), but durations and variation dependent upon caster level uses their wizard level of 3 as CL. Magic missile for example dispenses only two missiles to the wizard's aid, instead of the four that an 8th level wizard could conjure.
The spells.2da wiki article you linked seems to indicate that the first level is counted twice, so if you set this to 1 the character will get 11 wizard levels worth of spells/day over 10 pale master levels (2 levels worth of spells/day at level 1 PM, 1 at every other level).
I am going to assume for subsequent comments that I have interpreted spells.2da description incorrectly and it's just 10 levels worth of spells for 10 PM levels, and that CL is also granted by PM levels.
This now seems OP if PM gets additional spells/day and CL at 1/level. But I don't see any good means of balancing it out without taking a bite out of what makes the class fun and special. Giving fewer levels of spells means that the caster maxes out at level 20 with less spells than if they had gone pure wizard/sorc(/or bard, lol), and knocks them from ever attaining the important +5 gmw at level 20 (which is IMO another issue, 15 might be too low a level, but at 20 it encourages some pretty boring level progression for most casters). I don't know how the server is going RE high levels nowadays, so getting/not getting +5 gmw might not be something that anyone cares about anymore because level 20 is so close to retirement/endgame anyway.
The PnP armor proficiency (light + med) is not mentioned in your post, but seems like an easy change to go with the bone armor replacement.
With the addition of perform to the skill requirements, this class is now Bard only. I am not sure if this is intended. Make sure that perform is a class skill for SD if it stays as a requirement.
I like that the shifter now gets something new and shiny every level. It'd be cool if they could also access cosmetic shifts a la the hood of disguise, but with a larger selection based upon their shapes available. The ones they gain at levelups would remain as determining stats.
The modifications made to the epic forms would be handy to see ahead of time, as shifter necessitates some planning around what items do/don't shift and what ability scores are altered/unaltered.
Vanilla shifter's forms all included like 2-4 uses of "bassilisk gaze" or "drow darkness" etc. The uses/day of these abilities is woefully small, and too ineffective (low DC) to be worth keeping track of using them/quickbarring them all for each shift (it's also not documented at all from the player's perspective until they try to use it after running out of uses). The forms end up just becoming different combinations of ab, damage, AC and immunities. To spice up the shifter it'd be good if these abilities had more uses (why can't the basilisk just keep gazing? or gaze once every minute similar to you've implemented for HiPs?). The only useful one that comes to mind is the ice storm on the Rakshasa, and that's not because it's useful but because it's broken, and not limited to uses/shift.
(05-07-2015, 11:25 AM)Thayan Wrote: Dragon Discipline (Red Dragon Disciple) - http://dndtools.pw/classes/dragon-disciple/
1. A minimum of 5 Bard or Sorcerer levels are required to select this class
2. Upon selecting this class, the character can choose what type of chromatic or metallic dragon traits they will manifest. This determines the type of dragon breath, dragon wings, and elemental immunity they receive
3. At 6th level, rather than 7th level, a permanent +2 increase to Constitution is gained
4. At 8th level, rather than 9th level, a permanent +2 increase to Intelligence is gained
5. Every two levels of Dragon Disciple adds +1 to a PC's effective character level (ECL), with a maximum of +4 ECL at level 8. This means level progression for Dragon Disciples will be slower than other classes. In addition, this ECL increase stacks with any ECL increase for special template or subrace characters
I think the ECL penalty is over the top. Having 14 levels in some other class seems far preferable to RDD now. For powerbuilding, I would prefer an extra 4 levels than to take RDD. Especially in combination with the requirement for 5 levels in sorc/bard, this will surely lead to the character having to face some pretty rough monsters for their level.
I would recommend examining what (say) a fighter gets over 14 levels that makes it the equal of 10 levels of RDD. IMO the fighter largely comes out on top.
If the +4ECL is really necessary, what would a 14 level RDD class look like? Can this be implemented? It might make the workings of the class clearer to players.
Quote:My rationale for ECL is with all the stat increases, they end up faaaaaar ahead of even the subrace/template PCs that are considered 'powerful' just on the (lesser) stuff they get (fewer ability bonuses and/or special feats), so I felt it appropriate that a class, in this case, get hit with an ECL penalty as well.
Perhaps I can express myself better by saying that under this rationale, the ECL penalty for the stat bonuses is already sufficiently taken care of by needing 10 levels in RDD.
Bard seems a lot more viable than sorc, here. Assuming you go 10 RDD/sorc, you're basically 10 levels of slightly above average fighter without plentiful feats, with 5+ levels in sorc, which gives you a few spells, low DCs, low duration and low dispel resistance. Playing as a mellee whacker type, the sorc levels are baggage and vice versa. AND you face stuff at your level + 4.
(05-07-2015, 11:25 AM)Thayan Wrote: Harper Scout - http://dndtools.pw/classes/harper-scout/
1. Skills requirements are: Persuade 8 ranks, Bluff 4 ranks, Lore 4 ranks
2. The Harper Scout gains +1 spellcasting level for each level taken, regardless of whether they are an arcane or divine spellcaster. As a result, the following spells/abilities are not received: Sleep, Cat's Grace, Eagle's Splendor, Invisibility, or Curse Song
3. At 5th level, the Craft Harper Item feat allows the creation of many powerful potions not otherwise craftable, as well as magic musical instruments such as Ollamh Harp, Dove's Harp, Harp of Charming, Austruth Harp, Harp of Haunting, Harp of Pandemonium, Janthra's Harp, Cli Lyre
All those harps should probably be made usable by harper scouts who aren't also bards. Harp of Haunting seems a bit of an odd choice. Animate dead doesn't sound like the Harper's style.
Perform should be a class skill.
If I have arcane and divine spellcasting, does this class act like mystic theurge? What if I take 3 paladin levels, 5 HS levels and then move on to 4th level paladin. Do I get the additional divine spellcasting on my paladin levels from the harper scout levels I already have?
The PnP implementation has favored enemies as evil organisations(rather than creature types), including the red wizards. Giving them favored enemy: Red wizards (and include legionnaires, other folks who are under the red's organisational structure etc.) would make this class a lot more interesting (though I've no idea about viability of implementation). And to make sure the bonus is relevant (and to account for the specificity of "red wizard" as compared to "humanoid"), use character level instead of class level for determining the bonus.
(05-07-2015, 11:25 AM)Thayan Wrote: Pale Master - http://dndtools.pw/classes/pale-master/
1. Bonus Language: Necromantic
2. Pale Masters have d4 Hit Die, not d6 Hit Die
3. The Pale Master gains a +1 arcane spellcasting level for each level taken
4. At 4th level, Undead Armor Affinity provides a -10% Arcane Spell Failure when wearing undead armor such as Zombie Hide, Ghoul Shell, or Vampire Hide. This increases to a -20% Arcane Spell Failure at 8th level. Undead Armor Affinity replaces the NWN-specific Bone Skin ability
5. At 5th level, Control Undead is gained and functions as per the NWN spell. This replaces the NWN-specific Summon Undead ability that otherwise would have been gained at level 4
6. At 6th level, Undead Graft also grants the Pale Master a permanent +4 Strength bonus
7. At 9th level, Undead Cohort is gained which summons 3 to 6 random undead creatures of 2 to 4 Hit Dice below the Pale Master's character level
(05-07-2015, 06:00 PM)DarkRanger Wrote: The pale master +1 spell level means DC, spells per day, and durations are improved but no new spells are learned, correct?
(05-07-2015, 06:39 PM)Thayan Wrote: Yes, DarkRanger. Basically all I did was change ArcSpellLvlMod entry for Palemaster from 2 (every other level) to 1 (every level). It's described in more detail here in the notes section at the bottom of the page -
http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Classes.2da
This looks very attractive for a melee mage now if what DarkRanger said is correct (spellcasting from pale master affects caster level (CL), ie duration of spells, as well as number of magic missiles/etc.) as you said (your post seems ambiguous to me). In vanilla nwn, pale masters don't get any caster level at all. Example: A 3 wizard/10 pale master casts up to level 4 spells (their spells/day is the same as that of a 3+10/2 = 8th level wizard), but durations and variation dependent upon caster level uses their wizard level of 3 as CL. Magic missile for example dispenses only two missiles to the wizard's aid, instead of the four that an 8th level wizard could conjure.
The spells.2da wiki article you linked seems to indicate that the first level is counted twice, so if you set this to 1 the character will get 11 wizard levels worth of spells/day over 10 pale master levels (2 levels worth of spells/day at level 1 PM, 1 at every other level).
I am going to assume for subsequent comments that I have interpreted spells.2da description incorrectly and it's just 10 levels worth of spells for 10 PM levels, and that CL is also granted by PM levels.
This now seems OP if PM gets additional spells/day and CL at 1/level. But I don't see any good means of balancing it out without taking a bite out of what makes the class fun and special. Giving fewer levels of spells means that the caster maxes out at level 20 with less spells than if they had gone pure wizard/sorc(/or bard, lol), and knocks them from ever attaining the important +5 gmw at level 20 (which is IMO another issue, 15 might be too low a level, but at 20 it encourages some pretty boring level progression for most casters). I don't know how the server is going RE high levels nowadays, so getting/not getting +5 gmw might not be something that anyone cares about anymore because level 20 is so close to retirement/endgame anyway.
The PnP armor proficiency (light + med) is not mentioned in your post, but seems like an easy change to go with the bone armor replacement.
(05-07-2015, 11:25 AM)Thayan Wrote: Shadowdancer - http://dndtools.pw/classes/shadowdancer/
1. Skills requirements are: Hide 10 ranks, Move Silently 8 ranks, Perform 5 ranks
With the addition of perform to the skill requirements, this class is now Bard only. I am not sure if this is intended. Make sure that perform is a class skill for SD if it stays as a requirement.
(05-07-2015, 11:25 AM)Thayan Wrote: Shifter - http://dndtools.pw/classes/shifter/
1. Druids, 7th level Wizards or Sorcerers or 14th level Rangers who know the spell Polymorph Self, or 9th level Clerics with the Animal domain that provides Polymorph, may all become Shifters
2. The Shapechanging abilities, along with the order in which they are attained, have changed significantly, per the following list below:
a. At 2nd level, Humanoid Shape is gained
b. At 3rd level, Greater Wildshape II is gained
c. At 4th level, Greater Wildshape III is gained
d. At 5th level, Undead Shape is gained. Note that the undead forms provided are not as powerful as the NWN epic version of this ability
e. At 6th level, Greater Wildshape IV is gained
f. At 7th level, Dragon Shape is gained. Note that the dragon forms provided are not as powerful as the NWN epic version of this ability
g. At 8th level, Construct Shape is gained. Note that the construct forms provided are not as powerful as the NWN epic version of this ability
h. At 9th level, Outsider Shape is gained Note that the outsider forms provided are not as powerful as the NWN epic version of this ability
3. At 10th level, each of the Greater Wildshape abilities may be used an infinite number of times per day
4. At 10th level, Darkvision is granted and a Shifter's racial type changes to Shapechanger
I like that the shifter now gets something new and shiny every level. It'd be cool if they could also access cosmetic shifts a la the hood of disguise, but with a larger selection based upon their shapes available. The ones they gain at levelups would remain as determining stats.
The modifications made to the epic forms would be handy to see ahead of time, as shifter necessitates some planning around what items do/don't shift and what ability scores are altered/unaltered.
Vanilla shifter's forms all included like 2-4 uses of "bassilisk gaze" or "drow darkness" etc. The uses/day of these abilities is woefully small, and too ineffective (low DC) to be worth keeping track of using them/quickbarring them all for each shift (it's also not documented at all from the player's perspective until they try to use it after running out of uses). The forms end up just becoming different combinations of ab, damage, AC and immunities. To spice up the shifter it'd be good if these abilities had more uses (why can't the basilisk just keep gazing? or gaze once every minute similar to you've implemented for HiPs?). The only useful one that comes to mind is the ice storm on the Rakshasa, and that's not because it's useful but because it's broken, and not limited to uses/shift.