Class Modifications Discussion
#81
(04-30-2015, 05:53 PM)Hellstrom Wrote: Well, actually I want to stay 9th level, not 10th.

But all I have to do is to simply not level up when I get the ding and the replaced portrait. If I use the forge then it should keep me at ninth level and I can continue to use the forge to create items and then regain XP until I get the ding again. Alternately I could even level to 10th and gain some xp before creating a more powerful forged item that will lower me back to 9th level, but either way there really doesn't seem to be any point in using Stop XP Gains since you're never FORCED to take a level.

Unless there's something I'm not understanding about the xp, forge, or Stop XP Gains feature... which I'd be more than happy to hear about :)

This topic explains changes:

http://thaypw.org/showthread.php?tid=259...t=XP+Gains
Caramiriel:Retired
Garbage:Retired
Rimeth: Merchant of Bezantur
Marister (dead) -Ranger -Robin Hood of Thay (death marked for pissing off a Daeron.)
Vil'a'w'en Mel'for'm - Blighter of Moander
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#82
Uh... thanks? I read that before I posted this. From my re-re-re-reading of it nothing there contradicts what I posted above.
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#83
Since it as been a month since I first asked for community input on class changes, as of yesterday I have begun actual implementation of planned changes now. The following is a list of the class changes (some of which you probably know are already in place - such as the Arcane Spell Failure reduction for Bards, or the player menu options for various classes). However, almost all of these are not implemented yet, and will not be implemented until the hak update. So please don't freak out just yet! ;)

But this is your final opportunity to provide a better alternative to a class change I am planning, so please take the time to red through the proposed changes and politely voice any objections/opinions on what, if anything, you think should be done to improve them. Or if you still feel a class is a bit weak (Harper Scout, perhaps), are their any recommendations you have that fit with source material to improve them? I will state up front that some ideas already mentioned, or that may come in to play, may not be possible due to NWN mechanics or my limited (but improving) custom content skills.

In addition, this could probably be considered an advance notice for those of you either playing the (most) affected classes, or planning to play them, of the changes coming your way. After further consideration, I will be implementing class verification code *only after the hak update* which will check for removed/replaced/new class abilities on an existing character every time they login and make sure to update that character with the Thay PW modifications to the class if they do not match. If your character no longer has the necessary requirements for the class, you will not lose any levels you have in it, but you will be unable to take more levels in the class until the new requirements are met. And with that said, I also *do not* wish for DMs to assist with any rebuilds of characters because, as with the server crash last year, that could end up being a never-ending task as players may come trickling back with old(er) PCs. So this may also be a time to start evaluating if your existing PC(s) should maybe be retired in favor of a new start on a more optimized build for the class. But if you absolutely can't live without your current PC, then you could go crazy on the enchantment forges to delevel yourself, and rebuild as you see fit.

Again, I just want to reiterate that what you read below is the beta version of what I am currently working on implementing. And what is listed below are just the changes. Unless specifically noted, existing abilities are still gained at the levels they would normally be gained in NWN. But please do not take any of this as set-in-stone yet, although it is unlikely there will be drastic deviations from what is below. It is likely that, as I get further into the implementation process, some of what is below may change, be added to, or taken out altogether.

Core Class Modifications
Bard
1. When wearing light armor, bards suffer no chance of arcane spell failure
 
Cleric
1. Through an option in the Player Menu, Clerics may Pray for Blessing once every 8 hours

Druid
1. Bonus Language: Animal
2. Bonus Language: Druidic
3. Through an option in the Player Menu, Druids may Commune with Nature once every 8 hours

Paladin
1. At 1st level, Detect Evil is gained and may be used an unlimited number of times per day
2. At 3rd level, rather than 1st level, Divine Health is gained. This ability also grants immunity to lycanthropy

Ranger
1. Bonus Language: Animal
2. At 1st level, Tracking is gained and may be used an unlimited number of times per day to detect nearby creatures
3. At 6th level, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting is gained
4. At 9th level, Evasion is gained
5. At 17th level, Hide in Plain Sight is gained. Hide in Plain Sight cannot be used more than once per round in combat

Rogue
1. Bonus Language: Thieves Cant
2. Through an option in the Player Menu, Rogues may Inspect a Mark to determine their susceptibility to being pickpocketed or tricked

Sorcerer
1. Bonus Language: Magic

Wizard
1. Bonus Language: Magic


Prestige Class Modifications
Assassin - http://dndtools.pw/classes/assassin/
1. Bonus Language: Assassin
2. Assassins and Blackguards are the only classes that can handle poison without risk of accidentally poisoning themselves
3. At 2nd level, any of these spells may be cast, up to 3/day: Disguise Self, Sleep, True Strike
4. At 4th level, any of these spells may be cast, up to 3/day: Cat’s Grace, Darkness, Fox’s Cunning, Invisibility, Undetectable Alignment
5. At 6th level, any of these spells may be cast, up to 3/day: Magic Circle against Good, Clairaudience/Clairvoyance, Nondetection, Spellslayer Arrow
6. At 8th level, any of these spells may be cast, up to 3/day: Bloodfreeze Arrow, Dimension Door, Freedom of Movement, Improved Invisibility, Poison
7. At 8th level, Hide in Plain Sight is gained. Hide in Plain Sight cannot be used more than once per round in combat

Blackguard - http://dndtools.pw/classes/blackguard/
1. Blackguards and Assassins are the only classes that can handle poison without risk of accidentally poisoning themselves
2. At 1st level, Blackguards may summon an Armored Nightmare as a mount
3. At 1st level, Detect Good is gained and may be used an unlimited number of times per day
4. At 2nd level, any of these spells may be cast, up to 1/day: Cause Fear, Cure Light Wounds, Doom, Inflict Light Wounds, Corrupt Weapon
5. At 3rd level, the Blackguard can Command Undead as would an evil cleric of two levels lower
6. At 4th level, any of these spells may be cast, up to 1/day: Bull's Strength, Cure Moderate Wounds, Darkness, Eagle's Splendor, Inflict Moderate Wounds
7. At 5th level, the Summon Fiend ability will summon forth a random Tanar'ri (Demon) or Baatezu (Devil) 1 to 3 Hit Dice below the Blackguard's character level
8. At 6th level, any of these spells may be cast, up to 1/day: Contagion, Cure Serious Wounds, Inflict Serious Wounds
9. At 8th level, any of these spells may be cast, up to 1/day: Cure Critical Wounds, Freedom of Movement, Inflict Critical Wounds, Poison
10. At 9th level, the Blackguard's eyes will glow with a red, evil malevolence

Divine Champion (Champion of Torm) - http://dndtools.pw/classes/divine-champion/
1. There is not an alignment requirement to select this class, however a patron deity must be selected to choose it
2. At 3rd level, Smite Infidel is gained which allows the character to smite a creature who worships a different deity; adding his Charisma bonus to the attack roll and his class level to damage

Dragon Discipline (Red Dragon Disciple) - http://dndtools.pw/classes/dragon-disciple/
1. A minimum of 5 Bard or Sorcerer levels are required to select this class
2. Upon selecting this class, the character can choose what type of chromatic or metallic dragon traits they will manifest. This determines the type of dragon breath, dragon wings, and elemental immunity they receive
3. At 6th level, rather than 7th level, a permanent +2 increase to Constitution is gained
4. At 8th level, rather than 9th level, a permanent +2 increase to Intelligence is gained
5. Every two levels of Dragon Disciple adds +1 to a PC's effective character level (ECL), with a maximum of +4 ECL at level 8. This means level progression for Dragon Disciples will be slower than other classes. In addition, this ECL increase stacks with any ECL increase for special template or subrace characters

Harper Scout - http://dndtools.pw/classes/harper-scout/
1. Skills requirements are: Persuade 8 ranks, Bluff 4 ranks, Lore 4 ranks
2. The Harper Scout gains +1 spellcasting level for each level taken, regardless of whether they are an arcane or divine spellcaster. As a result, the following spells/abilities are not received: Sleep, Cat's Grace, Eagle's Splendor, Invisibility, or Curse Song
3. At 5th level, the Craft Harper Item feat allows the creation of many powerful potions not otherwise craftable, as well as magic musical instruments such as Ollamh Harp, Dove's Harp, Harp of Charming, Austruth Harp, Harp of Haunting, Harp of Pandemonium, Janthra's Harp, Cli Lyre

Pale Master - http://dndtools.pw/classes/pale-master/
1. Bonus Language: Necromantic
2. Pale Masters have d4 Hit Die, not d6 Hit Die
3. The Pale Master gains a +1 arcane spellcasting level for each level taken
4. At 4th level, Undead Armor Affinity provides a -10% Arcane Spell Failure when wearing undead armor such as Zombie Hide, Ghoul Shell, or Vampire Hide. This increases to a -20% Arcane Spell Failure at 8th level. Undead Armor Affinity replaces the NWN-specific Bone Skin ability
5. At 5th level, Control Undead is gained and functions as per the NWN spell. This replaces the NWN-specific Summon Undead ability that otherwise would have been gained at level 4
6. At 6th level, Undead Graft also grants the Pale Master a permanent +4 Strength bonus
7. At 9th level, Undead Cohort is gained which summons 3 to 6 random undead creatures of 2 to 4 Hit Dice below the Pale Master's character level

Purple Dragon Knight - http://dndtools.pw/classes/players-guide...on-knight/
1. Heroic shield, useable an unlimited of times per day which gives a +4 dodge bonus to an ally's AC, lasts for 1 turn. It does not stack.
2. Rallying Cry, useable three times per day which grants a +1 bonus to attack and 20% bonus to land speed, lasts for 1 turn. It does not stack.

Shadowdancer - http://dndtools.pw/classes/shadowdancer/
1. Skills requirements are: Hide 10 ranks, Move Silently 8 ranks, Perform 5 ranks
2. At 1st level, Hide in Plain Sight is gained, but cannot be used more than once per turn while in combat. At 3rd level, Hide in Plain Sight improves and can be used once per round while in combat
3. At 3rd level, the Summon Shadow ability will summon forth a shadow creature 1 to 3 Hit Dice below the Shadowdancer's character level
4. At 4th level, Shadow Evade is gained and lasts for 5 rounds per class level

Shifter - http://dndtools.pw/classes/shifter/
1. Druids, 7th level Wizards or Sorcerers or 14th level Rangers who know the spell Polymorph Self, or 9th level Clerics with the Animal domain that provides Polymorph, may all become Shifters
2. The Shapechanging abilities, along with the order in which they are attained, have changed significantly, per the following list below:
a. At 2nd level, Humanoid Shape is gained
b. At 3rd level, Greater Wildshape II is gained
c. At 4th level, Greater Wildshape III is gained
d. At 5th level, Undead Shape is gained. Note that the undead forms provided are not as powerful as the NWN epic version of this ability
e. At 6th level, Greater Wildshape IV is gained
f. At 7th level, Dragon Shape is gained. Note that the dragon forms provided are not as powerful as the NWN epic version of this ability
g. At 8th level, Construct Shape is gained. Note that the construct forms provided are not as powerful as the NWN epic version of this ability
h. At 9th level, Outsider Shape is gained Note that the outsider forms provided are not as powerful as the NWN epic version of this ability
3. At 10th level, each of the Greater Wildshape abilities may be used an infinite number of times per day
4. At 10th level, Darkvision is granted and a Shifter's racial type changes to Shapechanger
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#84
At first glance I really, really like the proposed changes here.

A couple questions:
1. Are you still thinking about making changes to existing poisons or adding new poisons that do damage rather than lower ability scores?
2. For Shifters (which changes I'm very happy to see), how many times can they shift into their forms per day (ignoring the Infinite Greater Wildshape at 10th)? Is it going to remain 3/day like it is now, or is it going to change to 1/day for each Shifter level as per the dndtools link?

I'll try to look through in more detail and see if I have any more questions or comments.

Thanks so much Thayan!

Possibly stupid follow-up question... :)

(05-07-2015, 11:25 AM)Thayan Wrote: Assassin
3. At 2nd level, any of these spells may be cast, up to 3/day: Disguise Self, Sleep, True Strike

When you say that, does that mean a 2nd level assassin can, for example, cast two Disguise Self and one True Strike per day. Or is it 3 of each per day?

If it's the latter I'd politely suggest the lines be changed to read "At 2nd level, each of these spells may be cast, up to 3/day:"
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#85
I'm still fairly undecided about poisons. Since I don't have the ability to change DCs based on class, it would probably be something like Poisons doing additional damage. I can specify a script (per poison) to run whenever the poison is applied, so I'll probably start with that. But at this time, at least for the hak or next server update, poisons will probably remain as they are.

All shifter forms will be available 3/day until level 10 when just the greater wildshape forms become available an infinite number of times per day. I know that shifter, even with the proposed changes, is still not terribly close to the D&D implementation of it, but this is one where there are several NWN mechanics that make implementing it exactly to source very difficult, if not impossible, to do. But if there are recommendations for change to that class, especially, I'm very eager to hear them.

Assassin and Blackguard spells are going to work like Sorcerer and Bards when they cast. They have a pool of X spells that are granted as a radial menu feat (think like how Shadow Conjuration is setup). That feat will have 1 or 3 uses per day. Any combination of those spells can be cast - but no more than the limit per day. So in your example, the first option of casting two Disguise Self and one True Strike would use up all the spell castings at that level until the PC rests.
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#86
The pale master +1 spell level means DC, spells per day, and durations are improved but no new spells are learned, correct?
Mirella Locke - Callisto

Olukon Thrune - Bookworm priest

Hargrid Beld - Paladin of Hoar

Lyta Csndrila - Fire Woman(On hold)
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#87
Thayan Wrote:Druid
1. Bonus Language: Animal
2. Bonus Language: Druidic
3. Through an option in the Player Menu, Druids may Commune with Nature once every 8 hours

These are already in place though I think you can commune with nature more frequently than 8hrs though I have no object to the extension.

The ranger options I will look at when I next log in Marister.

Also wizards and sorcerers already get magic as a class language.
Caramiriel:Retired
Garbage:Retired
Rimeth: Merchant of Bezantur
Marister (dead) -Ranger -Robin Hood of Thay (death marked for pissing off a Daeron.)
Vil'a'w'en Mel'for'm - Blighter of Moander
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#88
Yes, DarkRanger. Basically all I did was change ArcSpellLvlMod entry for Palemaster from 2 (every other level) to 1 (every level). It's described in more detail here in the notes section at the bottom of the page -
http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Classes.2da

I did the same thing for Harper Scout, only for both the ArcSpellLvlMod and DivSpellLvlMod columns for them so they'll add a caster level for the highest divine or arcane spellcaster class they have. Hopefully that may make them somewhat slightly more attractive for arcane/divine spellcaster PCs to consider picking up.

Animayhem, I don't know if you understand; but these are *not* all implemented yet so none of your PCs will have the more significant changes I outlined above. Some things already are, as I mentioned in the initial post today, but most are not. The bonus languages are one of the things already in place though. As are the things for certain classes pointed out in the Player Guide. That post is meant to be a starting point for what will eventually become the definitive 'here are all the Thay changes from NWN implementation of these classes'.
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#89
Ok, after having had more time to digest and re-read your post, I have to take back what I said before about liking the changes. I love these proposed changes. They've got my mind churning about the next characters I want to play, which is really cool.

I love the changes to HiPS, and adding that feat to the other classes like you have dilutes the one-feat appeal of taking a Shadowdancer level.

Assassin looks SUPER interesting now and considerably more appropriate abilities to the quick-kill & disappear rep the class should have.

Blackguard looks much less bland and more anti-paladinish and the spell-like abilities fit in well with that. Getting the mount at 1st level is great b/c they can't take the class until 7th character level or later. And super-hurray for making them look uber evil at 9th level BG :D

One possible nitpick I wonder about is Blackguard point #3. At 3rd level, the Blackguard can Command Undead as would an evil cleric of two levels lower. So this means a 3rd level Blackguard (min 9 character levels total) can command undead as a 1st level cleric. A 10th level BG (min 16 character levels) can command undead as a 8th level cleric. I have to wonder if that's at all useful for any Blackguard except ones that multi-class with cleric. But overall probably a minor point.

(BTW, for full disclosure my newest character Mordecai was created with the intention to take some BG levels. I started the character after this thread started so I could play around with the class and with poisons in Thay to see how well it all works together. I say this now because I don't want this to be later misconstrued as "you lobbied to make your new character uber-powerful". Not that I think these changes make BG uber-powerful either. Anyway since I'm really enjoying playing the character so far even without BG levels, he may well become a long-term character.)

I like how Divine Champion and Dragon Disciple have been made much more generic and the appeal of RDD has been taken down a number of notches, which is probably good. Is it too many notches down now? Only time will tell :)

The additions to Pale Master make it considerably more attractive too.

Overall, just great stuff T.

(05-07-2015, 02:01 PM)Thayan Wrote: I'm still fairly undecided about poisons. Since I don't have the ability to change DCs based on class, it would probably be something like Poisons doing additional damage.

Ok, given that you can't change DC based on class, might it be possible to create new types of poison (called Toxins or Venoms to reduce confusion) that are only usable by characters with Use Poison and increase the DC on those? *shrug* Just trying to think of alternatives. Anyway, I hope my outpouring of input on this thread has been a help rather than a hindrance :)
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#90
(05-07-2015, 06:39 PM)Thayan Wrote: somewhat slightly more attractive for arcane/divine spellcaster PCs to consider picking up.

Animayhem, I don't know if you understand; but these are *not* all implemented yet so none of your PCs will have the more significant changes I outlined above. Some things already are, as I mentioned in the initial post today, but most are not. The bonus languages are one of the things already in place though. As are the things for certain classes pointed out in the Player Guide. That post is meant to be a starting point for what will eventually become the definitive 'here are all the Thay changes from NWN implementation of these classes'.

Ok Thanks.
Caramiriel:Retired
Garbage:Retired
Rimeth: Merchant of Bezantur
Marister (dead) -Ranger -Robin Hood of Thay (death marked for pissing off a Daeron.)
Vil'a'w'en Mel'for'm - Blighter of Moander
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