[The Philosopher]

Charisma is the mental Strength of your character, the measure of your willpower and your capacity to influence others. While it's nebulously defined - the game system lumps in "physical attractiveness" into the picture - it is not the kind of physical attractiveness you would conclude from strictly physical notions of beauty we may have, i.e. handsome face, tall, muscular, athletic, gorgeous curves. Rather, it's that personal magnetism, that certain je ne sais quois, that makes people almost irresistibly interesting, be they physical paragons of beauty or stunningly grotesque pictures of horror. Confidence, self-assurance, capacity for assertion, being able to take charge and sway things to their favour regardless of personal competence - those are usual characteristics of the charismatic.

Mind if I paste that into the charisma part then?

By all means!

A good thing to note with charismatic people is that they should never draw indifference from those around them. Charismatic people polarize those around them - either into loving them or hating them. Their personalities are so strong it is difficult to feel blasé about them. It's a common misconception that people with high Charisma have to be universally loved, cherished and liked, when it's not exactly true. A highly charismatic Blackguard, for instance, can make everyone around him cower in abject fear - why Intimidate is CHA-based, after all.

A highly charismatic character is one who feels comfortable with him or herself, who finds social situations easy to handle and address. They are characters who can come into the room, greet everyone warmly, carry a conversation and know the hows and whats of social cues. They can behave in such a way as to make others enjoy them, adjusting their actions to each particular individual. The king who has as much comfort in walking into his court as he does walking into a tavern, making friends even out of enemies while off-handedly complimenting interlocutors on their varied virtues, is a highly charismatic character. These are people who combine personal magnetism with social tact and skill, who command respect without even trying.

Conversely, a low-CHA character is far less personable - they have personality traits that do not lend themselves to drawing folk to them or even push people away, such as shyness, introspectiveness, an inability to handle social calls or circumstances, lack of politeness or even chronic abrasiveness and rudeness. The commoner who can't adjust to a queen's ballroom and starts telling bawdy jokes about raping to the Queen herself despite all evidence that what he is doing is terribly wrong has horrible Charisma. These are people who feel uncomfortable in leadership roles, and are more readily followers than leaders - or are, otherwise, megalomaniacally desiring or holding leadership while not having the slightest idea of how to command respect, leading them to abuses which only push others further away or reinforce their own personal incompetence rather than obfuscate it.

Roleplaying highly charismatic characters is as challenging as playing highly intelligent or highly wise ones, if not more so. Be very careful not to fall into the pit-trap of "all sorcerers and bards are stunningly gorgeous" - though plenty of them are, it's far from universal, as physical notions of beauty are as subjective as subjective can be. It's a measure of inner beauty that complements the outer, ultimately, and, like all the mental attributes, dependant on stellar roleplay to carry out successfully.

[MilesBeyond]

Here's a question: What are people's thoughts on using skill checks to influence interactions with other players? e.g. I ask you to go get me some gargoyle skulls, tell you I'll pay you 150 per skull. You come back to me with some, but tell me you want 200 per skull, then do a Persuade check so that I'm obligated to pay 200.

Personally I don't know how I feel about that because on the one hand, it could create some cool RP opportunities and help to flesh out the character, but on the other hand, it rather feels like arm-twisting, and it can be open to all sorts of abuses. I'm guessing it's a no-no?

[Nehetsrev]

Here's a question: What are people's thoughts on using skill checks to influence interactions with other players? e.g. I ask you to go get me some gargoyle skulls, tell you I'll pay you 150 per skull. You come back to me with some, but tell me you want 200 per skull, then do a Persuade check so that I'm obligated to pay 200.

Personally I don't know how I feel about that because on the one hand, it could create some cool RP opportunities and help to flesh out the character, but on the other hand, it rather feels like arm-twisting, and it can be open to all sorts of abuses. I'm guessing it's a no-no?

The way I see it, my character may be persuaded that you won't willingly let the goods go for less than what you're asking. That doesn't mean I'm obligated to pay your price. I also have the options to try to take the goods by force, along with anything else of yours you happen to be carrying at the time, or I can look for another seller who will sell what I need for a price more to my liking. I could even agree to buying the items at the price you demand, and then later screw you over to make the difference back again. Just my thoughts. I think I'd like to see more RP than dice-rolls to determine some things, but in other instances dice rolls serve well to determine outcomes, or at least probabilities.

[C1QP0X]

I saw a bit of talk on charisma and thought I would throw in my 2 cents in on this NWN "fad" that helps keep power-building down to a minimum and at times, I have seen the topic start arguments amongst good friends on NWN. Here are a few excellent examples for those who may have come to believe charisma is what you do, rather than the way others perceive you.

Some classic characters with low charisma:

Luke Skywalker. Unintimidating and unimpressive in demeanor. Not nearly as charming as Han, nor was he intimidating - he never managed to back anyone down with his words, and everyone always "called his bluff," even if he wasn't actually bluffing.

Inigo Montoya. Couldn't get a crowd to move by yelling, had a hard time convincing Wesley he was trustworthy, and had to plan his dramatic lines 20 years in advance - and even then, repeated them because he couldn't think of anything else to say.

William Turner. Terrible delivery of cliched pirate slang, awful bluffer that is easily read, and even when he attempts to be intimidating (slamming a hatchet into a table), those around him just sigh.

Why do I mention these? Because these are all likeable and heroic protagonists. High charisma isn't essential for cool heroism, and low charisma doesn't have to mean you're a clod or a goon. You can be good-looking with low charisma, you can be noble and heroic, and just maybe you're not imposing or silver-tongued. Just keep in mind that you don't have to be a rude slob just because you have a 9 CHA.

[Purulent Carcass]

Whenever someone uses dice to roll a persuasion/intimidation check, if it's high and VERY persuasive I always take it into account and give a nod in the direction of favor. However, that said I do not consider it the be all end all. If the request is ludicrous or even just a bad idea, no matter how compelling the argument is I will side with reason and logic as long as I am playing someone smart enough or wise enough, to know better. To suggest that players have to do as you say, just because you put a a lot of points into your persuasion or intimidation is stretching it. That said, most NPCs should and do. This is my opinion on that subject.

[Animayhem]

Intelligence,Wisdom and Charisma go beyond just what points you have given your self ooc. Its about balance and rp in my opinion.

Maybe your character has low intelligence but maybe has had actual experience with what was being discussed so at least on the topic at hand they can seem more intelligent.

You are involved in a discussion with someone going through a crisis yet low wisdom skill but having been through something simular so can offer advice based on that.

You are involved in a discussion by which someone maybe going to do something which could have a high chance of failure for instance. You having been through it can try and presuade and talk the person out of it.

In regards to the above three we have to not fall in the trap of foreknowledge as in actually experiencing it in real life or as a character on another PW. We should try and base it on things that happened in game in Thay.

I feel in general the built in dice rolls work well for the most part and as some have said rp is better. Too many dice rolls detract in my opinion. I prefer to have the checks or play with then a bit with the npc's.

Dice rolls in my opinion should most frequently be used by dms in stories to help further them along. In this world I have rarely seen dice rolls used by regular players as rp has determined to me what is to be accepted. It may not have been what I wanted but it made sense.

For regular players maybe a strength check if the need to move someone or prevent someone from attacking someone or some such or even dexterity.

We need to keep in mind we are playing with actual persons not AI's where what the dice roll is law.

[The Philosopher]

Curious that you should ask, MilesBeyond, it's a subject near and dear to my heart and something I've long discussed about before.

If we disregard character skills, instead choosing to rely on roleplay, we will have people who cannot persuade their way out of a paper sack roleplaying diplomats and people who actually invested skill points into them literally being considered useless, because RP alone will place certain characters on pedestals, regardless of actual, measurable skill.

It is a pernicious issue that logically leads to a dangerous slippery-slope; people RPing outside their stats or outside their alignment. Or, worse still, people simply going *blox!* whenever roleplaying. In other words, it leads to abuse and god-moding.

Skills and dice rolls are there to keep us from trampling eachother with rampant imaginations or arbitrary decisions, which is where some RP often slips into, RP I have actually witnessed in game. Numeric attributes and skills are there to give a fair chance to all parties and offer socially-oriented characters a means to triumph outside of combat. I am rather aware that there is a general consensus on demonizing those fiendish dice rolls as being disruptive of roleplay - roll-play and other loaded terms come into mind - but they were created for very good reasons. They protect all parties from god-moding, which I hold as the pinnacle of disgusting roleplay.

I understand the almost overzealous desire to protect one's own character from being influenced by others, or even forced toward being influenced, which is what I believe to be the greatest fear of those who protest against rolling a social skill during roleplay with other PCs. "I decide how my character reacts, not the dice and not someone else's character sheet!", and other such expressions, are used frequently. People don't want the control of their character to be surrendered or conditioned. Yet such an argument falls to pieces when we discuss, say, Hide and Spot - The one who invested in the first should be, by all rights, successful at evading the one who did not invest in the latter, in CvC. Another example is Perform, a social skill as much as the three aforementioned; if a good roll is achieved, then the performer plays well and this influences others. Everyone agrees. Why, then, is this not done for the other social skills? Why are social skills relegated to NPC interaction, as much living and breathing as the PCs themselves?

While people react well to descriptions and so on and certainly roleplay well, the double-standard regarding treatment of social and non-social skills is troubling, and is something I would see addressed and discussed. Roleplay etiquette is something I personally take very seriously. While I certainly do not defend or condone arbitrary rolls, which are just as bad as arbitrary roleplay, balancing both is, in my view, a necessity and something I would suggest for a healthier and more productive roleplaying environment for our collective playground.

In short, your social skills are as much worth, and should be as much worth, as your combat skills are in CvC. If Discipline is taken into account during combat, if AB and AC and STR modifiers and CON and all that shebang is rolled for in the system, then it stands to reason that yes, social skill rolls should very much be taken into account when they are made use of, whether in CvC or in CvE. I personally find it to be nothing short of god-moding to ignore another character's high skill rolls, a severe breach of roleplaying etiquette.

HOWEVER.

Social skill rolls should ALWAYS be based on RP, should ALWAYS take into account the opposing player's counter-rolls (including circumstancial bonuses or penalties he or she may decide, within reason) when there isn't a DM present to arbiter things, and should be used as much for flavour as for winning an argument/telling a convincing rumour/scaring others into shushing up. It is there to enrich our fun, not a tool for abusing.

You have every bit the right to utterly ignore a social skill roll that has no leg to stand on. But to ignore a properly based skill roll - with roleplay leading up to it, with respectful etiquette being employed and with both parties comfortable with things, as it IS CvC - is the height of disrespect. PCs have invested into their skills for a reason. Let's not relegate those skills to the back-water.

[Sundraoi]

All of these are good and have merit. I would like to stress though that they are not rules for Thay. If you want to use dice for reactions from other PCs, please make sure the other PCs are in agreement and -wish- to use the dice.

For instance, don't walk up to a stranger, tell them they will help you then roll intimidate and expect them to jump. They may not be the type who wishes to use dice unless it's an event and the DM tells them to use them. They may also be the type to beat you to a pulp for even thinking of ordering them around.

The dice for a fight is also a great idea if ALL parties present are in agreement, not just those in the fight. If you are in a public place, don't be surprised if someone jumps into the scrum... or if a Red Wizard decides to end it with magic.

I do not post this to cause waves or upset. I do like some of these ideas, I just want to clarify that not everyone who plays here wants to go that route. Many of us are happy with the engine and scripts in place.

Again, I want to stress these are not rules of ThayPW. They are suggestions and ideas for the player base if they so desire them. Do NOT expect every player you encounter to agree with/or use the dice for social skills or fights or anything else.

[WingsOfStardust]

Update:
- Disclaimer added. (I had one earlier but it seems to have disappeared, when I must have edited text)
- The Philosophers text about charisma added.

[Spoon]

That is really good stuff Wings :)

I'll throw out some of the things I've recommended over the years and you can use or not at your leisure.

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One thing, that at least or me, Thay has done differently and very well is its death system. It's realistic and can be kind of scary sometimes, especially if you are trying to build up your notoriety or if you fugue and lose all your gear.

That considered, let this filter into your RP. You just barely scraped through some nasty crypt crawl (IE the one Carcass and gang barely got through last night) and afterwards OOCly I was exuberant, if exhausted from sitting on the edge of my seat for over two hours. Don't just play it off like everything is cool and you do that kind of thing before breakfast every day. Your character just escaped the jaws of death and would be ecstatic. RP that. Now most new characters won't feel this sense of dread of dying until their first fugue. But I tell you, after that first one your perception will change.

Furthermore, in RP situations, Thay is full of bad guys. Bad guys that may or may not kill you at the drop of a hat. Or otherwise hurt you, or just in general not be very nice, that is the RP of the world we play in. First off, make sure you never take any actions against your PC in a roleplay situation OOCly. Whenever possible let things ride in character. It will work out better in the end, trust me on this. Secondly unless your character is out of their minds, roleplay accordingly when you encounter someone that could squish you like a bug, and would if pushed.

The Golden Rule of this kind of a game, is that conflict breeds RP. If everyone got along and was happy and frolicked out into the wilds to slay dragons only to come back to the shiny tavern, drink and be merry, we would all get bored pretty quick. So be ready for conflict. Let your characters brood and hold grudges ICly for those big meanies that picked on you when you were little, get strong and get revenge, whatever you have to do. Challenge the system in character. Let me reiterate because it is that important. In Character.

The more you keep things in character, the more fun you're going to have. Plain and simple. Roll with the punches.

So a lot of that Wings already touched on, just adding my two cents.

Other big thing:

Metagaming.

First off, in my time at Thay I have seen so little of this that it is surprising. Usually just by nature you see more of it.

That said, for those of you who may not know what this means, metagaming is the use of knowledge of In Character information that you as the person behind the keyboard have, that your character does not have.

There are two prime examples of how metagaming happens. And it happens to all of us sometimes cause it's sneaky like that.

1: When you have more than one character, as most of us do. Character A learns something interesting, then you are playing Character B and he/she acts/speaks/uses said information that Character A was the only one who actually knew. A lot of times this can happen unintentionally. Especially when your two characters know and speak to the same other character in the game. Sometimes it is hard to manage who was told what or who learned what. Be mindful of this. Best resource to avoid this is use the in game Note feature. Everyone of my characters end up with TONS of notes. If you don't know what this is, its on the journal window when you look at your quests. There is a note tab.

2: We all like to get to know eachother out of character. Chat through tells, a lot of us end up chatting on skype/yahoo/facebook whatever. As you get to be friends, we share information. Tell a friend about an exciting event you know is coming up in game. Discuss future roleplay all kinds of things. Just remember at all times to keep this separate from what your character(s) know and use in the game.

So that is a little touch on Metagaming.

Final one.

Godmodding.

Having already touched on godemoting, godmodding is in a similar vein.

Basically what godmodding is, is when your character takes an action against another character through emotes because it is not something that can be done with the game mechanics.

IE

Two people are arguing, person A tries to storm off, person B gets mad and takes a swing.

In this situation here is an example of godmodding:

Character A: "Screw this I'm done with you!" *turns to leave*

Character B: "You're done with me when I say you are!" *throws a punch at Character A hitting him square in the jaw and destroying his face*

So the godmodding is a person taking an action against another character and deciding the outcome of that action without input from the other character.

There are two ways to avoid this.

1: Establish before hand through a couple of tells to the other character that this is what you want to do. If they approve, then go ahead and do as the example above. If not then you can start using game mechanics. Dice rolls, ability and skill check rolls. Etc etc. Whatever it takes to make it fair and reasonable with both people involved.

2: Change the way you emote and rp thise kinds of situations. Instead of the above circumstance, try something like this:

Character A: "Screw this I'm done with you!" *turns to leave*

Character B: "You're done with me when I say you are!" *throws a punch at Character A aiming at his jaw with the intention of bashing his face in*

So here you accomplished the same thing, but now you've allowed Character B a chance to have their own input. Now once again you can throw rolls in this if needed to decide if the hit connects, etc etc. But it is always best to allow people the chance to roleplay in opposition to you when you are taking an action against their character.


So anywho there is my ten cents for now. Hope it's helpful.