[Animayhem]

I am an rp player for the most part so build my characters around that. My first PC Avrora was a sorceress/rdd. I only took three levels and rped each level which I eventually was rewarded the ability to speak draconic as I had rped I lost the ability to speak it when captured. I believe I was at level 7 before I was able to get it at level 8 or maybe 8 and got it at 9.
I agree with bishop it should not be open to other classes which can rp they have dragon blood and on the charisma bonus.

As for fighter and arcane, fighter levels work well with arcane archers in my opinion.
First level wizard, sorc or bard. Fighter levels to make minimal requirements then AA
levels.

[Balanor]

I very much appreciate the discussion so far. I only want to add a few specific comments on (my) design limitations based on suggestions brought up. I don't want to stifle any potential discussion on other topics/issues, but I certainly agree with many of the comments and suggestions presented. As the staff can tell you - there are quite a few that were already on my 'would like to do' list. Especially for the PrCs, which I also agree could use the most attention/adjustment.

Hellstrom -
Hide 5 and Cleave for Blackguards are part of the 'official' requirements as to how they were implemented in D&D. I have to admit that hide is....a bit silly....but since that's the way in both PNP and NWN, I likely won't change those requirements.

You also mentioned modifying the Death Attack ability. Even to possible cause death on a successful strike. That is actually very much how it is in PnP. Unfortunately though, in NWN I have discovered no way of 'hooking' into that event. In other words, when someone makes a successful Death Attack, that entire process is hardcoded into the game engine and I have no way of finding out via script (or NWNX that I can tell) when that has occurred. And therefore no way of modifying or adding any special code to that attack type. So while I do like the idea of somehow modifying the Death Attack ability, at the moment it is beyond my understanding/knowledge to modify.

But as a little teaser; I do have some other goodies in store for Assassins - one in particular that I haven't seen mentioned yet, which may make people more interested in trying out a build with that class...


Bishop -
Thanks for pointing out the Undead Armor Affinity feat from the Libris Mortis. Although unless you're thinking of something else, it's not a guaranteed 0% ASF in undead armor as it reads: A pale master has an instinctive feel for undead armor. At 4th level and higher, he treats the undead armor as if its arcane spell failure chance were 10% less. At 8th level, this reduction improves to 20%.
I mention this now because this one will more than likely occur, and I don't want you to think that I was intentionally ignoring or twisting your suggestion about this feat. To offset this new ability/benefit, Pale Masters are most likely not going to get the NWN-implementation-specific Bone Skin ability anymore.

Thanks again everyone who's commented. There's some really good ideas here, I think.

[Balanor]

I've another question for the D&D hardcores out there. Late yesterday I ended up discovering (yes, I never knew before) that Harper Scout and Harper agent are actually 2 different PrCs...it appears. Harper Scout was created in D&D 3.0, while it appears Harper Agent was created in D&D 3.5. I have long gone off the assumption that NWN just horribly botched the implementation of Harper Agent, but I now stand corrected that they actually implemented the true Harper Scout class fairly close to source.

I've identified Harper Scout as one of NWN's prestige classes that should receive some modification for Thay to make it more attractive/playable here, and this now kind of throws a wrench in things.

But my question for the D&D fanatics: Do any of you know if Harper Agent was actually meant to replace Harper Scout? While they are very similar in some things (like the special god-in-the-name feats they get), are they truly two separate PrCs? Or did the powers that be intend that Harper Agent replace Harper Scout in D&D 3.5 rules? I'm thinking 'no, the are two separate PrCs', but if anyone knows for certain, please do share that info.

[Kolde]

Considering while the two books they come from are similar they do have some different PrCs in them I'd say that ones not completely redone in PGtF, are likely still meant to exist as they are, question being was Agent a redo of Scout. There's also this statement in the same book: "While the version 3.5 revisions to the DUNGEONS & DRAGONS game included a number of relatively minor changes and updates to the game system, the majority of your existing 3rd Edition FORGOTTEN REALMS supplements and accessories are still perfectly usable in your game. FORGOTTEN REALMS Campaign Setting: Chapters 1 through 3 of Player’s Guide to Faerûn update and supersede Chapters 1 and 2 of the FORGOTTEN REALMS Campaign Setting. The rest of the Campaign Setting is unchanged by the v.3.5 revisions to the DUNGEONS & DRAGONS game. However, Chapter 7 of this book (the Campaign Journal), offers some updates on major story developments reflected in the Return of the Archwizards and War of the Spider Queen novel series."

Judging by the differences and similarities of the class(es), I'd say that Agent was meant to replace Scout. But they seem to leave it open to the DM whether or not to use both.

[Hellstrom]

So I've thought some more about blackguards based on Kolde's very helpful posts about them. That's good information and does make the BG a little more attractive, but I still feel like it leaves the class wanting a bit.

First, you'd have to build the PC so specifically to take the most advantage of the CHA bonuses and Divine Might/Shield that it seems like there's really only one optimal build. One of the things that's I like about the most of the base classes is how flexible most of them are in terms of being able to make a very effective character that's mechanically different than others.

Second, as Kolde said, the BG only really comes into it's own at level 15 and up. That might be fine for a PvP server where you're leveled up to 15th or 20th at the start, but on Thay I want to have a character that's effective at every level.

Finally, there's not much about building a BG in that way that feels... all that interesting, at least to me. While the character sounds like it could be pretty effective, I don't feel the real anti-paladin I'm-so-evil vibe from it.

I like what Thayan is talking about doing with poisons... that would be one step toward making both BGs and assassins attractive to play. It's too bad the Death Attack can't be customized. I'd like to know more about the Aura of Despair effect that Kolde mentioned. And beyond that maybe a few BG specific feats to help add some flavor and differentiate them from each other?

[Kolde]

So I've thought some more about blackguards based on Kolde's very helpful posts about them. That's good information and does make the BG a little more attractive, but I still feel like it leaves the class wanting a bit.

First, you'd have to build the PC so specifically to take the most advantage of the CHA bonuses and Divine Might/Shield that it seems like there's really only one optimal build. One of the things that's I like about the most of the base classes is how flexible most of them are in terms of being able to make a very effective character that's mechanically different than others.

Second, as Kolde said, the BG only really comes into it's own at level 15 and up. That might be fine for a PvP server where you're leveled up to 15th or 20th at the start, but on Thay I want to have a character that's effective at every level.

Finally, there's not much about building a BG in that way that feels... all that interesting, at least to me. While the character sounds like it could be pretty effective, I don't feel the real anti-paladin I'm-so-evil vibe from it.

I like what Thayan is talking about doing with poisons... that would be one step toward making both BGs and assassins attractive to play. It's too bad the Death Attack can't be customized. I'd like to know more about the Aura of Despair effect that Kolde mentioned. And beyond that maybe a few BG specific feats to help add some flavor and differentiate them from each other?

There are actually a few builds that work well with BG, albeit far fewer on a level 20 server. A few that come to mind that could work in Thay well enough are: 16 bard/ 4 BG, 18 Sorc/ 2 bg, 12 fighter/ 4 bg/ 4 rog, 16 rog/ 4 bg, 18 cleric/ 2 bg, and the one I'm using: 6 ftr/ 4 rog/ 10 bg. Yes their is a best way to distribute attributes, feats, etc... However that stands true for pretty much any PrC, and (to me at least) it makes sense that PrCs are more specialized than base classes.

While I certainly wouldn't complain if they decided to make BGs stronger, being as I play one, I don't really think the class is lacking that badly based on its PnP implementation (Especially compared to classes like Harper Scout and Assassin). It's missing a mostly useless spell list that would require wisdom to cast from, and Aura of Despair.

From d20srd:

Blackguard Spell List
Blackguards choose their spells from the following list:

1st Level
cause fear, corrupt weapon, cure light wounds, doom, inflict light wounds, magic weapon, summon monster I*.

2nd Level
bull’s strength, cure moderate wounds, darkness, death knell, eagle’s splendor, inflict moderate wounds, shatter, summon monster II*.

3rd Level
contagion, cure serious wounds, deeper darkness, inflict serious wounds, protection from energy, summon monster III*.

4th Level
cure critical wounds, freedom of movement, inflict critical wounds, poison, summon monster IV*.

Aura of Despair (Su)
Beginning at 3rd level, the blackguard radiates a malign aura that causes enemies within 10 feet of him to take a -2 penalty on all saving throws.

[Balanor]

To assist with the discussion, the following are links to sources for each of the Prestige Classes. I have nothing against SRD, and I use it a fair amount, but I recently re-discovered this D&D Tools site and I like how it cites the source the information comes from so if you have the source material you can see it with your owneyes too. From what I have worked on verifying it seems to be pretty accurate with the information -

Arcane Archer - http://dndtools.pw/classes/arcane-archer/
Assassin - http://dndtools.pw/classes/assassin/
Blackguard - http://dndtools.pw/classes/blackguard/
Divine Champion (Champion of Torm) - http://dndtools.pw/classes/divine-champion/
Dragon Discipline (Red Dragon Disciple) - http://dndtools.pw/classes/dragon-disciple/
Dwarven Defender - http://dndtools.pw/classes/dwarven-defender/
Harper Scout - http://dndtools.pw/classes/harper-scout/
Pale Master - http://dndtools.pw/classes/pale-master/
Purple Dragon Knight - http://dndtools.pw/classes/players-guide...on-knight/
Shadowdancer - http://dndtools.pw/classes/shadowdancer/
Shifter - http://dndtools.pw/classes/shifter/
Weapon Master - http://dndtools.pw/classes/weapon-master/

[Kolde]

Just a suggestion for assassin. Would it be possible to give them access to HiPS at level 8 as per pnp? I think that alone would make the class viable.

[Balanor]

Awww. You ruined the big tease/surprise that no one had mentioned yet.

But the answer...is 'Yes'. :)

[LifeLikeSage]

What the heck would HiPS do?

There's already a round delay for reentering stealth mode, making the HiPS feat useless unless you're using it like a dingus out in the open with no cover.

For example..... I tell you a story of two rogues... for science

If roguey-poguey-dingus is a rogue/shadowdancer and has HiPS on Thay, roguey would have to spend an entire round either: getting shot at, having spells cast at his dumb face, getting knocked down, running in circles in hopes that he's faster, and overall getting wrecked for entering the encounter like a true dingus.

Now, Joe-Schmoe-Rogue is a clever S.O.B. and he knows never to engage a target outside of a decent matrix of cover for re-hiding, since Thay isn't a lame server where you can't re-stealth. Joe sees some jerk face hostile NPC with loot and stands near a cover matrix. Joe pulls out a ranged weapon, he inclines his camera down and zooms in (giving him farther sight range than the "topdown" view allows), fires at the jerk hostile NPC, turns around the corner with more than ample time, and lures the hostile IDIOT over to the cover matrix, where he proceeds to sneak attack (or if he is an assassin) death attack rinse and repeat. Even with gimped HiPS he would have to spend that entire first round running around cover and gaining some distance before entering stealth mode and walking around to test and see if the NPC is still targeting him (since NPCs are dumb and cannot feign losing sight of the enemy for a leet sneak attack like PCs can).

This means that unless you're some rogue/assassin diluted with a combat class to fight Caramiriel style (tank'n'spank), you're going to find yourself running since pure rogues (pure from combat class mixtures) are squishy and must avoid being hit!

I simply don't see how gimped HiPS has any worth to a non-combat rogue or assassin mechanically when the PC will have to spend that first round running away anyways.