[Sundraoi]

HiPS comes in quite handy if you are seen before combat. You can walk right up to an enemy then POOF, vanish and get that sneak attack in.

It also comes in quite handy if there are multiple combatants. He can sneak and kill one then use HiPS since the other was not engaged. Then he can sneak on the second target.

If the rogue is smart enough not to hunt alone, he can vanish before he's engaged anyone so the meat shields can engage first. Then he's free to get as many sneak attacks as he wants.

So you see, HiPS is not a waste in Thay. You just have to know how to use it to your advantage.

As an aside, you also have to take into consideration that Thay IS a PvP server. I don't know about you, but I don't wanna get a rogue with unmodified HiPS pissed at me. You'd be dead and never have a chance to retaliate. I know, I've used it against PCs (in an arena type setting) on another server. No one could defeat my little rogue there.

[Balanor]

One "entire round" (an "entire" 6 seconds) of attack against someone with HiPS is more than fair. Every other class has an infinite number of rounds they face attack in combat without being able to pop in and out of it every 6 seconds (at least, not without spells/potions/etc that also take a round to use to do so). This includes even ranged or melee rogues who could presumably have the same stats, BAB, etc and attack coming out of stealth but without the benefit of being able to jump back into stealth 6 seconds after. As a point of clarification; after the first attack, someone with HiPS can re-enter stealth regardless of the distance or attack status of the hostile target. There's no need to run around or try to find cover like a lowly 'normal' rogue. So there is still a strong combat benefit to taking a class with HiPS in Thay.

The standard NWN implementation of it was far to open to abuse and tactics like Sundraoi pointed out made it near-unstoppable. As a result, I am strongly against ever changing it's current modification and implementation in Thay. If anyone still has a problem with how this feat has been implemented in Thay and you really need to discuss it further, PM Sundraoi. Or, if you don't like it and you don't want to bother trying to convince her/me that it needs to be changed, you're always feel free to choose a PRC that doesn't use HiPS.

Now, I'd like to return this thread to something other than a discussion about HiPS.

Are there any other recommendations for class modifications that have not yet been discussed? Any thoughts on PDKs? Or Shifters? There hasn't been too much on Arcane Archers or Dwarven Defenders either - are they 'ok', or is there anything you'd like to see changed/implemented that would make them more attractive/playable in Thay?

[Animayhem]

As for Arcane Archer, I have no problems with it. I think the key is on the early build you do to get there.

For Rimeth I took wizard for the arcane aspect and to get her to minimum requirements for AA, I used fighter. Once I got my first level of AA I have continued to take AA levels. This build has made her quite flexible in combat as either melee or ranged.

As for shifters, I only have taken one level with Cara by which she can change into five wyrmlings. Rp wise it did not make sense for her to take more.

As to Dwarven defenders and dwarves in general. They key in my opinion is to have some sort of dwarven area or home base. I have played on two worlds by which the dwarven population was decent because there was a Dwarven stronghold.

On one of these worlds, the dwarven defender was slightly modified in that the more drunk a dwarf became, the better the fighter. It is common lore that dwarves like their drink.

As for PDK, I only played it briefly in the single campaign and it seemed to be a glorified bard/fighter.

[Bela]

My current AA (Gayle) took one wiz, then went the next levels up as a ranger till she made her first AA level, she is now levelling up as an AA. She is confident in melee as well as ranged, although she prefers ranged and with rapid shot she is very accurate most of the time and deadly.

I personally have had no problem with this PrC in any aspect.

An early character of mine was a straight druid going into shifter, but I personally found her weak but that is in my opinion. But saying that, this was in the early days, when I had little to no idea on how to build a character. I have since learnt from my mistakes and with the aid from others on how to maximise a build without going over the top, I may one day attempt the build again. As an RP perspective she was pretty cool. Once again my own opinion. LOL.

Dwarven defender and PDK I have no knowledge of them at all as I have never played them.

Harper Scout, Mikki had joined the Harpers and was heading towards the PrC, but she never made the class before I retired her to the Shaundakul temple, but this is definitely one class I do have intentions of playing again. I feel she was definitely on the right track for the PrC.

[Kolde]

In my experience (albeit outside of Thay) AA is a very good class, capable of getting some impressive AB... Dwarven Defender as well is a very decent class, though I imagine uncommon due to the lack of dwarves around. Harper Scout and Purple Dragon Knight could use some love, and are actually the only two classes I can think of with absolutely no power builds based around, even with epic levels considered (which should say something). That said I've been brainstorming on ideas for them but have fallen short admittedly while staying within their themes. Now, I have seen other servers completely rename and change the classes into something else entirely, with whole new themes and abilities.. Is this anything that could be considered?

---

Ah, so something else I noted today, while not quite class specific, it is a balance consideration. Heal and Harm in NwN does not allow for a save, but in PnP both spells do.

Heal

(Player's Handbook v.3.5, p. 239)

Conjuration (Healing)
Level: Adept 5, Runescarred Berserker 5, Urban Adept 5, Cleric 6, Healer 6, Shugenja 6 (Water), Apostle of Peace 6, Druid 7, Urban Druid 7, Healing 6, Restoration (DCS) 6,
Components: V, S,
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Touch
Target: Creature touched
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless)
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless)

Heal enables you to channel positive energy into a creature to wipe away injury and afflictions. It immediately ends any and all of the following adverse conditions affecting the Target: ability damage, blinded, confused, dazed, dazzled, deafened, diseased, exhausted, fatigued, feebleminded, insanity, nauseated, sickened, stunned, and poisoned. It also cures 10 hit points of damage per level of the caster, to a maximum of 150 points at 15th level.
Heal does not remove negative levels, restore permanently drained levels, or restore permanently drained ability score points.
If used against an undead creature, heal instead acts like harm.

_________

Harm

(Player's Handbook v.3.5, p. 239)

Necromancy
Level: Cleric 6, Blighter 6, Death Master 6, Dread Necromancer 6, Destruction 6, Abyss (SpC) 6, Suffering 6,
Components: V, S,
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Touch
Target: Creature touched
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Will half; see text
Spell Resistance: Yes

Harm charges a subject with negative energy that deals 10 points of damage per caster level (to a maximum of 150 points at 15th level). If the creature successfully saves, harm deals half this amount, but it cannot reduce the target's hit points to less than 1.
If used on an undead creature, harm acts like heal.

[Animayhem]

Now, I have seen other servers completely rename and change the classes into something else entirely, with whole new themes and abilities.. Is this anything that could be considered?

Yes I have seen this done elsewhere however some were deity specific and some were crossovers. I played a class by which I was a sorceress/cleric it was quite fun.

[Hellstrom]

Ok, I'll try to tackle Shifter. I've never played one though I've considered it a fair amount and always ended up eventually deciding against it, so I can only really give my thoughts while looking at it and why I've decided against playing one. As with the BG discussion I'd be happy to hear alternative views.

Shifter - "A shifter has no form they call their own. Instead, they clothe themselves in whatever shape is most expedient at the time. While others base their identities largely on their external forms, the shifter actually comes closer to their true self through all of their transformations. Of necessity, their sense of self is based not on their outward form, but on their soul, which is truly the only constant about them. It is the inner strength of that soul that enables them to take on any shape and remain themselves within."

So, the Shifter class sounds really cool to me. Unlike most other PrCs that feel like refinements or specializations of other base classes, it feels like something really new and different. From the guides that I've read, it sounds like the proper way of engaging in combat as a shifter is to select the form that has the most advantages for the given situation... e.g. Mindflayer vs low will save types, a shape will high spell resist against casters, etc. But there are a couple of problems with with that strategy... 1) you only get 3 shifts per day (6 for Greater Wildshape 1 b/c of druid levels) at least until you gain 3 or 4 more levels to get those shapes infinitely. So if you shift to deal with one threat, then again for another threat, and again for another - then you've lost some of the best bits of your arsenal. Also, since Thay doesn't go to Epic levels, you'll never get Infinite Humanoid Shape or Infinite GWS 4.

And 2) the shapes come with some cool features that you can't use. e.g. "The kobold commando has a bonus to setting traps, but trap kits (like most other items) cannot be used while shifted. Similarly, the form has a use poison bonus feat, but a shifted PC will be unable to use a poison item to apply poison to a weapon."

Also playing a shifter is complicated. You must know all the capabilities of all the forms available to you so you can shift into the right one at a moment's notice. And you should also be aware of how the items you carry meld into your various forms. Here's a quick summary from one guide: "
Weapon All properties (extra damage, Keen, stat/ability bonuses, bonus Feats, etc.), but not the magical bonus To Hit and not the base damage (i.e., 1d8 for a longsword). Note also only a handful of Shapes merge your weapon, and the merged properties don't always show in the Character screen. Note that the magical bonus for damage does merge, however, so a +3 weapon merged into a minotaur's battleaxe will become a +1 battleaxe with +3 extra damage.
Offhand Weapon No.
Armor Everything except Base Armor Class. Bonuses to AC, skill modifications, and bonus Feats are melded.
Shields Everything except Base Armor Class. Bonuses to AC, skill modifications, and bonus Feats are melded. Shields are considered armor for purposes of which Shapes will merge them.
Gloves No. Sorry, Monks.
Gauntlets/Bracers No.
Helmets Yes. Helmets are considered armor for purposes of which Shapes will merge them.
Cloaks Yes.
Belts Yes.
Rings Yes.
Amulets Yes.
Boots Yes.

Note that any AC enhancements, regardless of type, are converted into Deflection enhancements when merging, and Deflection enhancements don't stack. So your +3 chainmail, +2 shield, +4 ring, and +2 cloak will only give you the highest AC bonus, +4, instead of the +11 you get while unShifted."

Then there's a list of which shapes merge weapons, which merge armor, and which merge items, because they don't all. Complicated.

And finally, your main means of defeating enemies is melee combat in almost any form. Some forms have special abilities, but those are extremely limited in uses "The basilisk's petrification gaze is limited to one use per day, plus one use for every five shifter levels. ". So at some point you're going to be going toe-to-toe, a quick look shows the forms just don't have very good AC, and as we see above, you're going to get maybe +2 or +3 more max from the magic items you're wearing.

Some suggested fixes/changes:
* Give shifters access to more shapes. In PnP the range of choices is huge. For Humanoid Shape it would be cool to add in the shapes from the Hood of Disguise, even if just for RP purposes.
* Give shifters more shifts per day than 3. It could be based on their Shifter level or their Wisdom score. Perhaps similar to clerics/druids in that Greater WildShape 1 counts as spell level 1, GWS2 as level 2, etc?
* Allow the humanoid shapes to use poisons, set traps, etc
* Add some shifter-specific magic items. Maybe ones that allow additional shifts or additional forms. Or maybe something that gives additional shifted armor or weapon bonuses.

Even with those I think the class feels a bit weak still.

[AusGre]

Hey there,

I'm not really technical with the coding or the work that goes into doing all the custom stuff on NWN. However, I am no less grateful for all the hard to whom does all that stuff for the server or any other server out there. I would like to see more custom classes out there, like Thayan Knight, Thayan Gladiator and maybe something with the Thayan Slaver. Just more lore related stuff and this might not be the right thread to have that in, but it was just a thought.

As well, I'd love to see some more monster races.

Thank you,
AusGre

[DarkRanger]

Red Wizards, Thayan Knights, Thayan Gladiators, and to a marginally lesser extent Thayan Slavers(no official faction but anyone of a certain notoriety can buy shackles) are all implemented as factions instead of classes here. Also just to add, I would be in favor of removing Harper and Purple Dragon Knight prestige classes to make room for something different, though what I can't really think of right now. If Red Wizard is a faction and not a class, why not the same for Harper.

[Hellstrom]

The Harpers are already a faction in Thay. They have a recruiter, a quest-giver, and a secret base. Which is why Thayan was asking why more Harpers (faction) aren't Harpers (class) :)