[Animayhem]

I played elsewhere where Shadowdancer was a class one had to take specific levels in. Its started at only three, but then the old place decided across the board on shadowdancers and a few otherPRC builds minimal five. This was done as one or two players had taken the Shadowdancer for the HiPS and were using it to rob pcs blind, especially those pcs who had little or no chance of detecting.

HiPS is a specialized skill one that would not be learned overnight. Maybe make level three the level to get HiPs.

[Bela]

I have played a rogue/shadowdancer before. Some may remember Meriam (M).

Once she got her first level of SD she was going to carry on with that class, she only made it to 2nd level SD before I decided to retire her. I found that once I had the SD lvl it made it a little easier for me to solo my rogue. Which, at that time, I was mostly a solo player, due to not having players on in my time zone.

My new rogue is going the same way and when she hits her 1st level of SD she will grow with that class. Although there is more chance for me to play with others now that the player base is giving more opportunities for me to play with others the same time I am on.

I think that SD, (the same as RDD), another class I play, once taken should have minimum levels taken before another class is taken or improved on.

Mainly because of the HIPS benefit that you get at 1st level. I think leave it at 1st lvl and at least 5 levels of SD once the class has been taken is not unfair.

If a build is being made for RP reasons, then I don't think this is unreasonable.

But that is my opinion.

[Hellstrom]

2. Require someone who takes one level in Shadowdancer to take at least X number more. Again, this too is not required in D&D or NWN and makes it more of a house rule. Although at least in this way the NWN implementation remains true - it's just that someone who takes 1 level of Shadowdancer must plan to include at least X number more levels of this class in their level 20 build of the PC.

To me the problem with this is that players who only take one level of SD would probably still delay taking the SD levels as long as possible. So if 3 levels of SD were required you might see Rog17/SD1 characters. And they might even stop their advancement there.

One possible alternative is to enforce a rule that goes something like "Once you take a SD level, you must maintain 25% of your levels as SD levels". So a PC who takes SD at level 10 would be forced to take another SD level at level 11, but woudn't be forced to take another SD level until 13th level. Because 12/4 = 3 required levels. That would mean by 20th level the character would have been required to take 4 levels of SD. It also means that a given character *could* avoid taking any more than one level of SD simply by waiting to take that level until 20th, but it means they wouldn't have had the benefit of HiPS for the previous 19 levels, so it kinda balances out. You could easily choose a different percentage to select for a preferred number of levels.

I think this plan has the benefit of possibly even allowing the notoriety requirement be removed for SD.

Another possible alternative would be to make higher levels of SD more attractive to take... but that's just crazy talk ;)

[Animayhem]

I think part of what Thayan was thinking (I may be wrong about this) was maybe having HiPs either grow with each level of SD taken or not be made available until level 3 in the class.

Has there been a recent rash of HiPS exploitation which caused this to be brought up? Personally if I muticlass it is for rp reasons however some may for powerbuild which does not bother me as thats the way the person plays.

How many people add rogue to their class for the perks it gives, umd, lock opening etc?

I think there has been a timer on how long and how often HiPS can be used. If not, this could be a could alternative.

[Balanor]

Hellstrom - I am looking at a way to make shadow Evade more attractive, but other than that I have not yet identified any other options to make the existing SD abilities any more 'attractive' than they already are. Looking back I can't see (or may have missed) any other specific ideas for improving/balancing the SD class though.

Another option than just requiring X levels of the PrC at some point in a PC's build is to require X number be taken as soon as the prestige class is first selected. Pretty much any combination or how/when someone can level in SD (or any PrC) can be enforced. I've also been thinking about the option similar to what Animayhem mentioned in that, once someone would take a PrC, no matter which one it is, the PC has to achieve a minimum level in it before he/she can start leveling up again in another class. But again though, that becomes yet one more house rule. And as I know we have a lot of them already if there is a more D&D or NWN in-line way to handle things I'd rather go that route, if possible.

And yes, with the balance changes I am considering making to the PrCs, I am thinking that notoriety requirements will be going away for all of them as other means should effectively regulate when or how someone can take them.

[Sundraoi]

I think the second option would be better. Make is so that once taken, the PC must take 5 lvls of SD before taking levels in another class.

Yes, the main reason to take SD is for the HiPS at first level. Since there is already the notoriety enforced to take the PrC to begin with, the rogue is already pushing or over 10th level before they can take SD. Making them wait another 3 levels to get the "true" benefit from SD would make more people go for that nifty cloak quest item that's out there and skip the SD entirely.

The changes to the PrCs are to balance them out as well as make some of the lesser used ones more appealing. Making it more difficult for SD to get the benefit of HiPS would balance it out, yes. But in my opinion it would also make SD not so appealing to play for those who don't want to wait til well past the mid range of the level cap to benefit from it.

[Hellstrom]

Hellstrom - I am looking at a way to make shadow Evade more attractive, but other than that I have not yet identified any other options to make the existing SD abilities any more 'attractive' than they already are. Looking back I can't see (or may have missed) any other specific ideas for improving/balancing the SD class though.

No, and sorry for my slightly smart-ass ending there, but that option hadn't been mentioned at all yet.

Similar to changes to other classes I discussed earlier, it would be nice to remove feats from SD that are duplicated with rogue (Uncanny Dodge I & II) and replace them with bonus feats that allows the selection of Uncanny Dodge among others. Removing the notoriety requirement would mean that since the player could add SD levels earlier their summons wouldn't be quite so useless. Making Shadow Evade better would be great too - a simple way would be to change the duration to X rounds per SD level.

The changes to the PrCs are to balance them out as well as make some of the lesser used ones more appealing. Making it more difficult for SD to get the benefit of HiPS would balance it out, yes. But in my opinion it would also make SD not so appealing to play for those who don't want to wait til well past the mid range of the level cap to benefit from it.

This arguments makes a lot of sense, but only if the notoriety requirements stay in place.

From my perspective I'd really prefer not to see the minimum level requirements for a class be implemented as "once you take one level you must take that class as your next X levels".

But of course, everything I'm stating in this thread is always just my take on things :)

[Animayhem]

If noterity requirements are removed then mayhap the level requirements should be in play. The place I was at that used the mandatory level had not noteriety instead some PrC were modified and Deity specific as the Deities there two were modified and only 12. The mandated levels at this place were not just for PrC but for cross class so minimal
would be 15/5 for two and any combination for three like 5/5/5 then one could add and mix it up like 8/6/5 etc.

Overall people liked it as it gave a more realistic feel to not only there own but other characters. There was a one time dm intervention to allow people to adjust their characters. I had a 17sorc/3fight I had to change to 15/5.

Thanks to Thayan to allow us to express our views. :)

[Bishop Edward]

If noterity requirements are removed then mayhap the level requirements should be in play.

Agree to disagree. That's an even more OOC control mechanism. Yes, other servers have done that, but it doesn't mean we should... in fact I think it's more evidence to suggest that we shouldn't, we've always answered common problems in unique ways and I know I'm not the only one who would hate to see us go in that direction here.

There's nothing inherently wrong with having as much freedom as the mechanics (NWN & PnP) allow.

Plus, we know our community is one of the more mature communities 'out there', so I really don't foresee any wide-scale power-gamer abuses going on here on our server anytime soon...

[DarkRanger]

I would suggest moving the feat rather than starting a trend of mechanically enforced "valid" builds.