[Hellstrom]

So, I'm curious if I could get some guidance on the relationship/hierarchy of RW Apprentices and the Legion.

It's clear that actual Red Wizards rank above every member of any legion. But what's the generally understood relationship between Apprentices and the legion, especially officers in the legion. It hasn't come up yet in any really important way, but Cain generally thinks about it like this -
* apprentices are not full-fledged Reds and therefore cannot give him orders unless they are relaying an order from a Red
* apprentices deserve and get respect (especially because they one day may become a RW), but they don't get the fear, subservience, and obedience that most others give them. Though Cain is willing to do favors and be helpful to them

Does that sound about right?

Also, to get a bit more extreme, what if a (stupid) apprentice ever attacked Cain? Is Cain supposed to stand there and take it, or can he defend himself? What if he ever killed or subdued an apprentice? Is it automatic death/enslavement or is it subject to judgement or treated more like the death of a slave (i.e. as theft from the master)?

I understand every situation is unique and hurting an apprentice would be very bad and subject to the whim of the apprentice's master, but like I said, some guidance would be appreciated. And I assume there would be some incidents in Thay's past that would offer some hints.

Thanks :)

[Aramil Leah]

Has someone been bullying Cain again?

[Karilynn]

I think that's a great question! (the one about the apprentice-relationship, not about whether Cain is being bullied, though that one is entertaining ;) ). I'd also be curious how it would apply to say a higher ranking temple priest (as opposed to an initiate).

[Hellstrom]

Cain was, in fact, bullied just last night by a couple of assassins who summoned two elder earth elementals and an ancient dire bear. With a Harm spell thrown into the mix it was quite the harrowing experience. Cain is still sulking. (Where sulking is defined as beating the crap out of the legionnaires who stood by doing nothing, and searching for the person who looted one of the assassins while Cain was running for his life ;) )

But yeah, I'm curious about Karilynn's addition too. In fact, let's make it a three-way ( :D ) question - what's the relationship between officers of the legion and high-ranking temple priests? (This situation has actually come up a couple times when Cain has beaten/killed some temple priests for IC reasons)

[EdinSumar]

In regards to temple priests it really depends on the individual temples. The High Priest and sometimes even normal priests of such profilic places as The Flaming Brazier and (to a much lesser extent) the House of Cyric and Temple of Umberlee would naturally be somewhat in the "can't be touched" area due to their important connection with many Red Wizards, while other, less important temples (such as Lliira, Juiblex or Gond) might easily be harassed with little consequence.

Then throw into the mix the couple of places (such as the Temple of Ilmater, Tempus, Helm and Tyr) which just outright refuse to let themselves be harassed, and largely pay the legion little heed even when they will suffer greatly for it, and you end up realizing that the approach to religious institutions really depends on the individuals in question. They should be seen as many different categories, rather than just lumped into one.

[Balanor]

In regard to the Red Wizard Apprentices, each situation will be different. I don't want to say "this is the way it is" because I think that the inter-faction conflicts open up somce very interesting RP opportunities.

However, a little source-based info that might help you base your reactions to certain situations starts with: the Red Wizard Apprentices are expendable to their masters. Many die. Of course, PC Red Wizard Apprentices are 'special' because there is a real person playing them and unless they screw up and run out of respawns or fail the lethal Red Wizard trials, even captains of the legion must defer to them at that point. So take that as you will, but it is unlikely that a Red Wizard is really going to stand up for or side with one of their apprentices if they cross a leader of another faction when the apprentice was not working directly on behalf of their master.

[Payne]

I suppose my view of apprentices is different.

Now I can understand they are scum to their masters, but to the general population they are "Red Wizard - Apprentice". A Red Wizard is the law, the top of the food chain, above all things except for the Zulkirite. An apprentice is one single step away from that position. They are not common wizards, they proved to the big mumbo jumbo class of the land that they desearved to start their journy to become one of them.

While Red Wizards are the rocks stars of the land, the apprentice is the American Idol winners. So to me, an apprentice should be respected, they should be accountable for what they do, but borderline above the law. Because really, would you even dare going to that apprentices master with a complaint? Especially when you consider they just might be doing exactly what their master wanted?

Anyways, thats always been my view. But during my time here I have found both PC's and DM controlled NPC's almost treat apprentices worse than a lvl 1 wizard newbie filth. Maybe this is taking advantage of the idea that masters treat apprentices so horibly. But my thinking? Knowing that the guy/girl I am belittling might become an all powerful Red perhaps even the very next day? I'd sure as heck mind my manners. :)

[kta]

Since I am no American I can only guess what a "American Idol winner" is, but how my PC's or DMed NPC's react to RWA's depend greatly on their social situation and education. While I have a PC or two that would eat RWA's to breakfast others would cringe before them. Playing a RWA myself I never had the feeling of being treated like "a lvl 1 wizard newbie filth"...

KTA

[EdinSumar]

But my thinking? Knowing that the guy/girl I am belittling might become an all powerful Red perhaps even the very next day? I'd sure as heck mind my manners. :)

Yeah, this is generally what keeps the respectful ones respectful. Those with a little bit of power, knowledge and who frankly care very little for egomaniac Apprentices usually know that less than one in a hundred actually succeed, and it most probably won't be the ones who are stupid enough to treat everyone around them like tools before their station permits it.

Quite a few show respect to Apprentices, but outright supplication is just not something that comes their way unless a person believe they can score in the future because of it, the person is just naturally submissive, or the person has no idea about just how expendable Apprentices are to their masters and Thay in general. Those people who are neither of those things understand that in most cases, the loudest and most brazen of Apprentices won't survive anyways, and as such should not be paid much heed if something more important comes up.

A big part of the Apprentice position is -all about- proving oneself humble (to the appropriate degree) and devious enough to make it far. Those who go all power hungry at the Apprentice stage flunk the test. Theres probably quite a few "hidden tests" created by masters specifically to see how Apprentices deal with un-cooperative higher ups in other factions when they do not have the support of their master. Getting angry and declaring how powerful you one day will be is a sure way to fail the test.

Some thoughts.

- Edin

[Payne]

Great post Edin, I liked that allot. And something I "try" and follow in my RP. But great post