[Balanor]

In preparation for an in-game event that will result in influencing certain RP aspects in Thay, I’d like to ask you (the community) for comments, suggestions, concerns, and debate regarding Thayan law. While generally lawful, the rulers of Thay are virtually all evil and will seek to bend or use any laws for their personal gain – as well as those individuals (and PCs) who are expected to follow and/or enforce them.

So, what is a list of laws, and how would they be stated, that you think the majority of the Zulkirs would be in favor of to govern not just the commoners and nobles of Thay, but even the lesser Red Wizards? The laws can be broken into groups with different punishments, or applied based on social standing, or really listed any other way you envision the ruling council of Red Wizards (the Zulkirs) implementing them. They would/could be used to try and avoid disastrous civil wars, keep a level playing field for the various schools of Red Wizards, and lord over the faiths (Kossuth, Cyric, etc) and other organizations that have great influence in Thay as well, and any and everything in between.

Note though that this is just the initial phase of implementing a more defined and written set of laws for Thay. This thread is to be used to provide a broad platform of ideals and recommendations that I and the staff will do our best to refine and officially introduce in-game. So please be aware that while any and all comments are appreciated in regard to firming up how the ‘law’ is implemented and will affect the lives of everyone in-game; not all of the suggestions or ideas presented here may be selected to represent the initial implementation of a more robust in-game system of law, crime, and punishment.


To help with the discussion, the following are entries from official source lore regarding Thayan law, crime, and punishment

Official Source Lore
Dreams of the Red Wizards
Essentially, Thay is an evil society. Overall, the alignment of the country is neutral evil, but this can vary from lawful evil (usually but not always exemplified by the Tharchions and Zulkirs) to chaotic evil (usually exemplified by the actions of many of the Red Wizards who are not Zulkirs).
But wherever one may be in Thay, the rulers and most of their followers are driven by greed and megalomania and paranoia. Each member of the society seems to be dedicated to raising himself to the highest possible pinnacle of success, preferably on the backs of his friends, family, and associates. Not everyone living in Thay feels this way, but it is the way of the majority. It helps explain why members of the ruling class have many acquaintances and associates, but very few friends.
This makes for an almost chaotic evil society, but chaos is kept away by a structure of traditions and laws that allow for the Red Wizards having almost total freedom to do as they please, but just enough restraint through societal pressure and the threat of retribution by all the other wizards to keep Thay from disintegrating into a million tiny magocracies, each with a king mage on top trying to destroy all the other little magic kingdoms.

Thayan law being what it is, gnolls get a great deal of pleasure out of enforcing it. Unlike their wilder brethren, Thayan gnolls are neutral evil, not chaotic evil.

Slaves do escape, and some are rescued by friends and family, but once a slave has been purchased in Thay, he can never legally (according to Thay laws) be a free man again. Slaves cannot be manumitted. They can be retired to lives of leisure if they have pleased their masters greatly, or turned out of the estates of their master for some transgression, but they are still slaves. If found running around free, they can be enslaved by any free person who finds them.

The land of Thay is divided up into 11 administrative regions, known as Tharchs. Each is ruled by a Tharchion or Tharchioness, who is drawn from the nobility of Thay (see Society of Thay). In each region, the ruler’s word is law, though each rules in a different way from his colleagues.
No Tharchion has ultimate authority for the nation, because that is in the hands of the Red Wizards. The authority of a Red Wizard supersedes even that of a Tharchion.

The Laws of Thay
Thay has no code of laws that rules its life. The Zulkirs make all pronouncements that affect the populace, and most of these are individual rulings on individual cases. Among their other duties, the Zulkirs are the high judges of Thay.
The law that rules the nation comes from the Tharchions and from tradition. Some of this tradition is taken from Mulhorand, the rest has developed over the centuries since Thay became a nation.
The following is a short description of the most important laws of Thay.

Laws about Murder
Every murder case is handled individually. Some Tharchions let their Autharches or even the constables on the streets administer justice in these cases. The most common punishment for common people is enslavement (a common punishment for any crime). If the murderer is someone such as an adventurer or a magic-user of some sort the usual punishment is death. Slaves who commit murder are punished (how heavily depends on how important the victim was) and either given back to their master or taken over by the government and sent off to the gold mines. Murder of a slave is not murder, it is theft.
Assuming the person in charge of dealing with murder cases takes the time to hear any arguments, any seemingly good reason for killing someone may be accepted, or the most obvious case of self-defense may get the killer sent to the gold mines.

Laws About Assault
There are no real laws about assault, unless the victim is an important member of society, in which case the assaulter may be slain out of hand or enslaved. Of course, the assaulter can be freed or punished depending on the relative importance of the victim to the assaulter.

Laws About Theft
Unlike many Realms, thieves are not branded and maimed in Thay. They are enslaved. This punishment can be handed out for something as unimportant as a loaf of bread. Particularly important thefts, such as that of a magical item from a wizard, can be punished with death. After all, who wants such an accomplished thief as a slave?

Civil Laws
Suits for redress and righting of commercial wrongs must be brought before the person in authority. This can be a Tharchion, an Autharch, or even a local Red Wizard. Most people try to avoid the justice of wizards, however, since they are said, correctly, to be somewhat whimsical in administering justice, and plaintiffs and defendants alike have been turned into frogs for disturbing a wizard with their petty problems. If there is a dispute between Tharchions, a panel of the Zulkirs hears the argument, and more than one Tharchion has lost life or current body as a judgment.
Disputes between wizards are settled between the wizards. There are no mechanisms for settling such disputes by any other method. If they cannot settle it by talk, they declare feud and people start dying. Sometimes one litigant decides that there is no settling the problem before the other does, and the first thing the other knows about the escalation is when he finds his breakfast has been poisoned.
For this reason, among others, most wizards are accomplished alchemists as well, specializing in poisons and antidotes. However, when the going gets tough, the wizards go shopping - for a good assassin.

The presence of assassins is a way of life in Thay. Since there is no legal method of appeal of any judgment by anyone, frustrated litigants must go to the ultimate appeal, the Assassins guild.
In Thay, the guild is composed of equal numbers of magic-users and thieves, with the occasional fighter thrown in for muscle.
The guild itself is legal, or at least there is no law against its activities. Individual members who do commit murders can be punished for them, if they are caught, but the Zulkirs realize that the assassins perform a service and do not do anything to suppress the Guild itself.


Spellbound
As the people of Thasselen are considered Aznar’s personal possessions, escape is a crime punishable by death - or worse.

Manumission, or freeing, of slaves is forbidden in Thay. Once an individual is sold, he or she is considered a slave for life and nothing short of escape can bring freedom. Particularly beloved or successful slaves are sometimes given their own estates by grateful owners, or are given positions with considerable authority and freedom, but in the eyes of Thayan law they remain slaves. The children of a slave are likewise considered slaves and can never be freed, either. Outside observers have noted that this tradition means that when the Thayans enslave someone, they are enslaving that person’s descendants in perpetuity.

By Thayan law, a zulkir can only be removed if he or she is destroyed utterly, beyond hope of resurrection or existence as a member of the undead.

You might think that the tharchions rule the land. After all, they represent absolute power in the tharchs they rule, and they can choose the autharchs who serve under them. Their word is law and their disapproval is death. Believe me, gnome. It’s true. My uncle once crossed a tharchion, and he vanished.

With the exception of independent small slave farm complexes and the coastal settlements of Bezantur, Thasselen, and Murbant, the Priador remains in a largely wild state. It also harbors a number of preserves where the Red Wizards keep monsters required for research and spell components. There are no restrictions on these creatures, which often venture beyond the boundaries of their preserves. Travelers attacked in the vicinity of these monster preserves are entitled to defend themselves, but Thayan law states that the creatures’ owners are not liable for any damage they do or deaths they inflict.

Though Bezantur is nearly as large and prosperous as Waterdeep, it has none of that great city’s joy and beauty. Resting like a suppurating sore on along Thay’s southern coastline, Bezantur is a dark, brooding walled city where assassins walk unhindered, the word of the Red Wizards is unquestioned law, and every imaginable vice (as well as some unimaginable ones) may be instantly satisfied.
Visitors are forced to defend themselves against the thieves, for the humans, gnolls, goblins, and other races that serve in Thrul’s Legion are more interested in living like kings and exploiting Bezantur’s citizenry than in enforcing its laws.

Street of White Roses
This region, which in other cities would be known as the “Red Lantern District”, is one of the most lawless in this highly lawless city. Here, stolen goods are exchanged, illegal deals are struck, forbidden magic is practiced, and courtesans of all sorts walk the streets.
The thieves’ guild controls activities here and pays the Thayan officials well to stay completely away. It is the one part of the city besides the thieves’ guild house where visitors are guaranteed complete safety from official Thayan interference.

Pyarados is a lawless frontier town with a central core of rigid authoritarianism and harsh beauty. I was forced to defend myself against a gang of half-orc bullies in the roughhewn settlement that sprawls around the central citadel.
The upshot of this is that the outer city, beyond the pacifying heights of the walls, is a wild and lawless place where the authorities turn a blind eye to most crimes, allowing street justice to settle accounts. Visitors should note that law enforcement is anything but lax in Pyarados, despite the lack of a large Thayan police force. Vigilantes punish those crimes the Red Wizards ignore, and their punishment is just as swift and certain.

There is much poverty and despair in Surthay, which has spawned a thriving criminal underground. The tharchion professes little tolerance for crime and has given his troops full rein to capture suspected lawbreakers and punish them on the spot. As usual in Thay, this has been taken by the garrison to be a license to pursue, capture, abuse, assault, murder, and destroy as they please.
Fortunately for the citizens of Surthay, the various criminal guilds are relatively powerful and can have particularly troublesome guards disposed of quietly. Systematic bribes and extortion keep other officials under control, but those with no connections to the crime guilds are helpless against the ravages of the Thayan soldiers.

For much of its history, the city’s exact layout remained a closely guarded state secret, and possessing an accurate map of Eltabbar was a crime punishable by death.

The tharchions appoint local bureaucrats, called autharchs, into positions at various levels. Autharchs function as mayors, military leaders, and ministers of various organizations such as trade guilds. Most autharchs have little authority and serve mainly as convenient scapegoats for accasions when a zulkir’s or tharchion’s plans go awry. The autharchs suffer a high turnover rate, since incompetent ones vanish or are killed and competent ones are promoted. The leader of a trade enclave, called a khazark, technically has an equivalent rank to an autharch running a very profitable guild in an equivalent-sized city, although the khazark tends to have higher status because he or she is always a Red Wizard. In situations where a Red Wizard is accused of a crime, the local autharch usually defers to his or her tharchion to avoid the possibly fatal blunder of confronting a Red Wizard who is under the protection of a higher-level politician.
While this chain of command works in theory, in practice the zulkirs hand down orders to the tharchions, autharchs, military, khazarks, or commoners with impunity. The only people with any real independence are the wizards, who endure long apprenticeships to their cruel masters before being able to strike out on their own and possibly enter the ranks of the Red Wizards.


Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting - 3rd edition
The Red Wizards form an elite class, the nobility of the land. Through the vast, regional bureaucracy administered by their hand-picked Tharchions, they govern Thay’s laws, commerce, and society.

A Red Wizard is a practicing wizard who has been indoctrinated into the outermost circle of Thayan politics. In Thay, only Red Wizards are allowed to wear red robes, and those who violate this law are swiftly caught and slowly tortured, usually in a public manner. To avoid even the threat of such a punishment, most Thayans never wear anything red, and some refuse to don orange clothing as well. The only exceptions are the clerics of Kossuth, who stand outside the ban and are easily recognized by their holy symbols and their multi-colored robes.

Standing laws in Thay prevent Red Wizards from simply seizing whatever food they want from farmers and any item they desire from merchants.


Lords of Darkness
For any Thayan enclave, the Law of Sovereignty applies: The land on which the enclave sits is considered Thayan soil, and Thayan law is the only law. This is more than just words on a trade agreement - the Red Wizards consider the enclave’s land to be a part of Thay, and while they don’t go out of their way to offend their neighbors with strange Thayan customs, they are not averse to punishing lawbreakers in their own fashion.
A person caught stealing might be flogged, or branded, or (rarely) put to death. The Red Wizards have harsh penalties for those who offend or harm a Red Wizards, with beatings, imprisonment, and enslavement all common responses.

Once a Thayan becomes a noble, it is almost impossible to take that status away from his family. Only the unanimous decision of the Zulkirs can remove the status of nobility; this is usually done by outlawing the family, arresting all accessible members, and turning the survivors of the arresting process into slaves.


Unapproachable East
The laws of Thay are, simple, and the penalties are brutal. They are mostly concerned with establishing who's in power. The tharchions and zulkirs consult a set of tomes known as the Library of Law when faced with a serious problem. However, most of the time, the authorities ignore these books in favor of expediency. These are the most important laws of Thay.
Only Red Wizards may wear red robes, so that all shall be able to identify them instantly.
Do not steal from other Thayans or harm their belongings, especially their slaves.
Do not kill or harm another Thayan. (In practice, this means, "Do not kill or harm anyone from your class or above.")
Obey the orders of your betters.

The proscription against wearing red robes is unusual, but Thayans take it so seriously that most refuse to dress in any clothing of that color. The penalty for being caught in such garb is execution on the spot. It's rumored that some of the forces of the Red Wizards always carry a spare red robe or two. This is then supposedly thrown onto the body after the guards have killed someone, giving them an excuse for their actions.

The laws of Thay are enforced by whoever claims to have jurisdiction over the people involved or the location in which the disturbance occurred. In Thay, just about every Red Wizard employs slaves or commoners as private guards. The more powerful the person, the more numerous and more skilled the guards. In Thay, might makes right, and the Red Wizards have plenty of might. The trouble comes when more than one group of guards claims jurisdiction over any particular issue. This happens often, and when it does, a fight usually breaks out.

[Purulent Carcass]

Regarding punishments:

I believe the laws are actually extremely difficult to enforce. We have two options laid out for normal punishment, thats slavery and death. Enslaving adventurers is even less easy than simply killing them due to the requirements to make a PC a slave, not to mention being able to make a slave playable enough its not a retiring factor. Kill someone and they come right back generally. Granted.. that can be overcome but dead PCs are not being played and we aren't trying to discourage the players with harsh sentances that are game stoppers for them.

Regarding the Law:

The law has been argued over in the past between commoners and it has been my understanding that the laws as they are written down are not generally available for commoners to peruse. The only place they are actually written down in game is inside of legion barracks. This lends to the idea that the law is generally interpretable by the situation at hand. Who is grieving? Who is accused? How important or powerful.. or well connected are each individual? Who paid a bribe ahead of time to ensure the situation went their way?

[Sundraoi]

Carcass has good points regarding the punishment of crimes. With a PC needing to be 9th level to be enslaved by another PC, it would require a DM to be present for sentencing. This makes it difficult for a PC legionnaire or RW to set down a sentence of enslavement. Granted, a legionnaire can lock them in a cell at the Citadel of Corrections til a DM was available, which raises other questions. Can a stone be used inside the Citadel of Corrections? Would the offender need to be taken out with subdual damage and his pack emptied of weapons and stones before he was tossed in a cell? Would the PC playing the offender make himself available for sentencing when a DM was available and would they wish to continue playing the slave or retire him and start a new PC?
As for the death sentence, Carcass is right, they just respawn and carry on, now with a grudge toward the one who killed them and cost them xp and notoriety. If death is going to be a punishment for crimes, the death should be permanent. This, again, would require a DM to accomplish.
With both punishments, which I agree from source material are the punishments of Thay, there is going to be difficulty carrying them out. Also, regardless of whether the laws are posted or not, there will always be the player who will whine over it and not accept the fact they RPed their character to death... or enslavement. We had death as a punishment for heinous crimes on my other server. ONE player took it in stride and accepted he PRed himself to death and was a good sport about it. The others who found themselves in situations where death would have been the punishment, either by the authorities or the the more powerful PC they offended, threw childish little hissy fits over it and refused to accept they screwed themselves.

[Githzerai Monk]

As is mentioned in some of the lore, I can't imagine many Reds would favor a codefied set of laws over deciding based upon their mood/what they had for breakfast. I don't imagine legionnaires care about the law either, more about their own hide, and their bag of coins (supplemented of course with whatever happens to take their fancy). Indeed, it is quite well planned out to have the citizenry confused as to what the laws are. If they aren't sure, they're living in fear.

Perhaps some type of punishment system like a gladatorial trial could be used, so long as the difficulty is not too great(and by not too great I mean designed so that most PCs won't have too much trouble. It's meant to be a solution which works around PC retirement, from my understanding). A gladatorial trial provides entertainment for the masses (and the sadistic sentencer) but it also provides an undesirable punishment. I'm not familiar with the lore on Thayan gladiators, however perhaps some sort of amalgamation of the law and the arena could be devised. For PCs less good in a fair fight, perhaps a sneaking solution could also feature, whereby the character must fast-talk and sneak their way out, forge the record for their punishment being served, and escape.

Perhaps a PC might accumulate a quantity of coin(based on the crime), which must be either paid directly into the coffers of the local Legion(naire's pocket) or won in some sort of gladatorial combat(the rate of earning would be much higher for criminals, but they wouldn't get to keep their money, else money-making by participating in the arena voluntarily is too easy or serving a gladiatorial sentence becomes too difficult). This could tie in with some non-punishment gladiator system, whereby the 'criminals' serve as the fodder for the champions or somesuch (or even become the champions of the arena).

Thoughts on time in jail:
-I for one don't have as much time as I'd like to spend playing this game. If I'm spending a large amount of that locked up in a cell, I feel cheated of my time and effort.

Thoughts on punishment by death:
-As is mentioned above, death is not always as permanent as PCs would like it to be. Sometimes the offender is simply spirited away and allowed to live, determined to get revenge. Killing someone is meant to -remove- them as a threat, not increase their grudge against you and give them a running headstart.

Thoughts on punishment by enslavement:
-Can render a PC unenjoyable to play.
-The player will have had a plan going for their PC, some goal. To have that cut short will not be an enjoyable experience. It's fun while the goal is possible (but perhaps on the verge of impossibility) but enslavement and perhaps complete impossibility simply makes the PC's story a dead end in some cases.

[kta]

Yeah - that raises the old question of who is mature enough for a server were most pc's are of evil alignment. This won't carry us far I think. What we need is to give players who are relatively new to server and setting time to adjust to it. Some may be used to play bullies or thugs and get away with it after being scolded by to pansy elven magistrate. Well this won't happen here so lets implant some 'middle rules' so not all quit in frustration after being killed for wearing red clothing.

KTA

[Balanor]

Fantastic. Thanks for the replies everyone. Keep them coming.

While I am an 'official lore' fanatic, the problem with that lies in the often-conflicting statements from the lorebooks. (see Thayvian vs. Thayan, for example), and sometimes the difficulty to effectively and realistically implement them in a game that does not constantly have a DM watching over it. For example - the idea that Thay has no codified set of laws is supported in the very first sourcebook with "Thay has no code of laws that rules its life". However, one of the more recent sourcebooks somewhat contradicts that and states "The tharchions and zulkirs consult a set of tomes known as the Library of Law when faced with a serious problem."

So to clarify; part of the reason why I am bringing this up here is to continue to get your input regarding how to reconcile sometimes conflicting source material regarding written/commonplace laws and punishment in a way that works for our PW. Ultimately, I am hoping the end goal of this initial discussion will result in at least a high level set of guidelines/rules (maybe the so-called ‘Library of Law’) that is available to everyone. But having some, or many, laws ambiguous - or have exemptions to certain factions/classes/or with expected bribes to keep an aura of fear over the population could (and probably should) still remain.

[BigbysBackhand]

Well for ease of RP for everyone involved when a crime is commited i think fines to be pocketed by the legionaires would be simplest for the more minor infractions. these crimes and the fines associated with them could be posted in the various legion barracks, and perhaps differing amounts based on what tharch you are in, to show the dissunity of the nation as a whole.

also perhaps a strike system to be kept by the legionaires themselves as in three stikes before being made a slave, or death. of course if the legionaires dont talk to one another about who commited a crime...a person could end up with many more strikes than 3 :)

so lets say for thievery, the return of the item, and a 500 talon fine along with a strike against the person..if the item has been sold increase the fine accordingly.

and so on and so forth down the list of crimes that you as DM's or us as a community define as things to be punished in this sort of way so that every player...but not every character..knows that there are laws and punishments for these minor things

as for major infractions, lets say murder of anyone not a slave or assualt on a red wizard or other such crimes as are deemed fit by you the DM's or community as a whole could count as a reason for a perma death or enslavement on the first offense, and in these cases a DM would be asked for to surpervise and perhaps a little mini event in the shape of a trial of course open to the public to hear the sentencing held in such heinous cases ect ect.

anyhow thats my two cents for now :)

[Animayhem]

Thoughts on time in jail:
-I for one don't have as much time as I'd like to spend playing this game. If I'm spending a large amount of that locked up in a cell, I feel cheated of my time and effort.

Thoughts on punishment by death:
-As is mentioned above, death is not always as permanent as PCs would like it to be. Sometimes the offender is simply spirited away and allowed to live, determined to get revenge. Killing someone is meant to -remove- them as a threat, not increase their grudge against you and give them a running headstart.

Thoughts on punishment by enslavement:
-Can render a PC unenjoyable to play.
-The player will have had a plan going for their PC, some goal. To have that cut short will not be an enjoyable experience. It's fun while the goal is possible (but perhaps on the verge of impossibility) but enslavement and perhaps complete impossibility simply makes the PC's story a dead end in some cases.

I agree with the above comments. Failing to resist slavers and being captured by them is legit and I think most players know this and will either go with it or kill off their character. To make it a punishment for a crime no for the following reason IMO:

Slavery and more so being a slave can go against a person's personal belief system and yet there are people who do not mind being slaves. So keep the possibilty of a being a slave voluntary or a result as a failed save from slavers.

Permanent death for a crime should not mean death of the character. Mayhap if the death is do to a captial offense, sanctioned an witnessed by a dm, then mayhap the character can only be returned via the fugue not by the friends or by a temple. The xp and noterity loss should suffice and allow the charcter options for interesting follow up rp.

Jail time- As player availblity is dependent on rl, this should be modified to maybe one rl day and maybe a fine.

This world is awesome and kudos to the creators :D however it is fantasy and people come here to escape.

I play on another PW and if people are in jail or prisoners, supplimental rp is done in forum so player still active but overall out of game is usually no more than two rl days. mayhap utilization more of forums to bridge gaps in punishment, trails would help.

I have two characters here and thats about my limit :P some players may not want to have to remake characters all the time.

[Animayhem]

Legion reenforcement of laws , exactly how is this done? The laws are listed in the legion barracks. Are they subject to interpretation as in fines? A while back a dwarf legionnaire was fining people for various so called offences, mainly carrying their weapons in the market though some characters did not know. It was interesting rp to be sure. I can see a fine line between rp as a law enforcer based on how your character is played, and possible griefing and abuse of power.

Azura has once or twice informed people about such things and made a mental note for future if they repeat it in her presence. The only other enforcement she has experienced was a player whose character was a hin and ran past a red without stopping. Azura told the hin to stop but when they failed to do so went fater them and brought them back at the request of the wizard.

On the public boards in the past have been offical notices of wanted criminals, etc.
maybe this could be started again and serve as a guideline. A caveat to this would either have to be some rp to have caused this either by players in game or via a dm intervention.

I am not saying that this has to happen to have characters who play legionnaires to fulfill their roles but it would help. I have come on as my legionnaire character and there are no other PC legionnaires on so if noone to rp with, I call my legionnaire meatshield and we go on a quest for the Master Sergeant.

The only law enforcers/ givers which seem fully developed are the Reds. :P

OOC I know how law enforcers are played in worlds like this, however I am trying to keep that seperate from my character Azura as she is still realtively green as to how to fully carry out her responsibilities. :P

This in no way is a come down on the admins or any players :P just an observation and maybe if things like this were in place more people might be interested in becoming legionnaires.

[Hellstrom]

Yeah - that raises the old question of who is mature enough for a server were most pc's are of evil alignment. This won't carry us far I think. What we need is to give players who are relatively new to server and setting time to adjust to it. Some may be used to play bullies or thugs and get away with it after being scolded by to pansy elven magistrate. Well this won't happen here so lets implant some 'middle rules' so not all quit in frustration after being killed for wearing red clothing.

KTA

KTA has an excellent point here IMO. There needs to be a balance between the harshness of rule and punishment that the setting needs and the fact that we don't want to discourage new players from joining the server.

That said, I need to disagree some with Animayhem.

Slavery and more so being a slave can go against a person's personal belief system and yet there are people who do not mind being slaves. So keep the possibilty of a being a slave voluntary or a result as a failed save from slavers.

Permanent death for a crime should not mean death of the character. Mayhap if the death is do to a captial offense, sanctioned an witnessed by a dm, then mayhap the character can only be returned via the fugue not by the friends or by a temple. The xp and noterity loss should suffice and allow the charcter options for interesting follow up rp.

Jail time- As player availblity is dependent on rl, this should be modified to maybe one rl day and maybe a fine.

This world is awesome and kudos to the creators however it is fantasy and people come here to escape.

I play on another PW and if people are in jail or prisoners, supplimental rp is done in forum so player still active but overall out of game is usually no more than two rl days. mayhap utilization more of forums to bridge gaps in punishment, trails would help.

Yes, people play NWN for fun and to escape, and yes, we've all invested a lot of time and effort into characters that are mid-level or higher, but that doesn't mean there shouldn't be IC punishments/penalties for IC actions. Just as players should expect some bad results for their characters for disrespecting a Red Wizard, they should expect punishment for other IC actions. And, to keep the server consistent with Thayan law/custom/whatever those punishments sometimes MUST include perma-death or enslavement of the character. One of my characters (no names please :) ) has broken a number of the fundamental laws of Thay and were he to be caught, I'd expect no less than one of those two fates. The only thing I'd ask for is to be given a nice public, RP-able execution scene.

Jail-time would be nice, especially if members of the legion had some way to enforce it (i.e. there's currently no way to force an unwilling PC to march to the jail and walk into a cell). On another server I played on long ago, the town watch had a special club that would automagically transport chars to the jail once they were down. The only downside to it was that they could be forgotten there, so I think it would be necessary to also implement an automatic time-limit on it somehow. (And sorry if I'm getting off track of the purpose of the thread, which I think is more about the actual laws than enforcement of those laws, but the two do go hand-in-hand)

So, getting back to that...

While I am an 'official lore' fanatic, the problem with that lies in the often-conflicting statements from the lorebooks. (see Thayvian vs. Thayan, for example), and sometimes the difficulty to effectively and realistically implement them in a game that does not constantly have a DM watching over it. For example - the idea that Thay has no codified set of laws is supported in the very first sourcebook with "Thay has no code of laws that rules its life". However, one of the more recent sourcebooks somewhat contradicts that and states "The tharchions and zulkirs consult a set of tomes known as the Library of Law when faced with a serious problem."

I think if you look at those two statements right, they're not necessarily conflicting or contradictory. "Thay has no code of laws that rules its life" - true, because the word of Red Wizards is the ultimate law and they're not bound to follow any codified set of laws. If two Red Wizards came into conflict and for some reason that conflict required the intervention of other Reds, those Red Wizards would also not be rule-bound in their decision-making on the problem. I don't think that point conflicts with having a set of tomes that the "tharchions and zulkirs" (or even others) could consult with when faced with a serious problem. It's just that the Library of Law is considered a set of guidelines for what's worked well in the past or recommendations on how to handle something. Also, I think the number of situations that would require that sort of consultation would be pretty small.