[Purulent Carcass]

Let's just say I am horrified by hand holding. Fines for thievery sound like a very firm "Time OUT! Timmy!" While I pointed out the difficulties, that does not mean I do not agree that the punishments spelled out should be handed out.

A strike system as in three strikes and you are out is also hard to maintain, we can barely get people to post things in game as it is.

I also REALLY disagree with not making people slaves because they disagree with slavery in real life. IE a personal belief system. What we need to be doing is making being a slave more interesting and even fun. The biggest problem I see with slavery is namely Player A does not want to be a slave to Player B. Since they are a slave, they really have no choice in it. Were the slaves masters NPCs, this tune might change. With an option to be sold to a player. The way we handle it now is we simply do not enslave other PCs unless the PC actually wants to be one. It saves us headaches from whining that results. I'm not saying that if you were visiting Sharner and suddenly Ryech comes along and beats your ass and throws you in a slave pen, wouldnt be a bummer to a player oocly who had goals and plans. But the fact is, if NPCs come along and enslave you, there are a lot less complaints on the part of the one being enslaved.


I also COMPLETELY disagree that death should not be the death of the PC as it stands. Now if a death sentance opened up a whole new world of rp and story, there is something to be said for that.

Lastly, we do NOT have a problem with getting players to play legionnares. Quite the opposite in fact. Many of our players that are not really into rp and just run around H&Sing tend to gravitate to the legion as a faction in fact. If there is a largest faction in game it is the Priador legion.

One of the things that drew me to Thay was that this is a harsh world, that there are evil people all over and the challenges seem insurmountable. Slavery.. perma death... those words brought me here. Lets not sugarcoat the world. Lets not make it a nicer place ICly. Making Thay a good place to play OOCly is great, but please PLEASE do not ask that we hold a players hand through every single step they make.

[Vortar the Mad]

It seems to me the source material is clear in that Thay is bound by not so much a set of written laws but by the whims of the red wizards and some degree of tradition.

Let's look at that, we have some traditions here in the Thay PW.

1) It is well known that the red wizards word is law. Any one diserespecting or defying a red wizard courts disaster. We have a few PC red wizards and while some of them are more capricious than others *cough, Maurin, cough* ALL of them have been excellent at making pronouncements within the spirit of Thay that add to the setting, often providing impetus for the players to achieve something. It is a common occurence that when a dm event is run for players to go running to Isahn, Maurin or Kaiser to aprise them of the situation and ask what is to be done. Often an NPC red wizard is substituted when none of these are available.

2) Status is EVERYTHING and might makes right. These are they bylaws of Thay and yet I see VERY few cases of griefing. I believe that this is a testament to the community. When I play Vortar I often have him be extremely nice to apprentices because today's apprentice could be tomorrows red wizard. I think that we should stick with the laws interpretation by a red wizard or in some cases allow the legion to extort their way to justice. Almost every single PC is attached to someone more powerful and influencial whom they must obey or be punished for it, Vortar and other very powerful PC's have Aznar Thrul. Faction members of all but the merchant faction have their various guild masters and high priests. Even the most lowly pc works for the beggar, in my days as a legionaire it was tradition that any who work for the begger are exempt from being targets of protection money. The same holds true for each strata...Is it REALLY wise to steal from a priest of the temple of Kossuth? Maybe the thieves guild will protect you but MAYBE the high priest of Kossuth will take issue with it and demand justice. This sort of detante is what holds Thay together, an interwoven power structure where every person owes or is owed allegieance from another.

3) Punishment in Thay is simple There are only a few options:

Fines could be given for the most lowly of offences...I like to think of them as bribes to not bring the matter up for more official consideration. In lieu and somtimes in addition to fines beatings or other types of humiliation would be administered. This already exists when you offend an NPC guard.

A red wizard (or dm as a red Wizard) could hear serious cases but the severity of the offence would almost always result in death or enslavement for the guilty.

I am with Carcass in that what makes Thay interesting and engaging as a PW is it's dark setting.

I believe the player base does a pretty good job of enforcing the traditions of Thay by and large and really any laws put into place should encourage the excellent RP which we are known for.

Traditional laws and customs could be set down so the uninitiated would have some idea what was up, but I'm for the general approach.

1)The word of a red wizard is law (if a pronouncement offends another red wizard the pronouncing wizard will hear about it)

2)There is no law regarding assault unless the assaulter is much lower status than the assauled, then the assaulted can choose to pusue punishment as they see fit..if they have survived of course.

3)Murder of another Thayan that is not a slave is prohibitted by order of the Zulkirs. (This law in practice should just mark the Murderer for permadeath if killed by another player. Even mysterious allies will not cross the zulkirs.) Murder of a slave is not murder it is theft, recompense for the slave will be expected by the owner. *exception, Assassin guild faction members are exempt unless a red wizard pronounces them sentenced to death*

4)Theft of a Thayans property is punishable by death or enslavement. (in practice this simply marks pc for an additional assassination or enslavement attack) *exception, Theives guild members are exempt unless a red wizard pronounces them guilty*

[Hellstrom]

Great post Vortar. Elf pies really are brain food.

I love the idea of certain actions marking the PC for additional or higher powered enslavement/assassination attempts. This parallels a suggestion I've been mulling over that would allow certain faction members... e.g. Red Wizards or high-ranking Assassins (not that I know any of those) to tag a PC for the same. For a price, of course :)

[Wids]

Like Carcass said, Thay is a nasty place and should be portrayed as a nasty place. Don't worry about offending a few delicate players; the majority of players can be surprisingly resilient, some of them even to the point of being masochistic.

The various domains of the Demiplane of Dread are also very unpleasant settings to find oneself in; I also used to play on the Prisoners of the Mist server and yes, that server can be downright sadistic to the players. And yet they're boasting over 30 players every night. And this is the server where I saw several public executions of player-characters, another character had his hand cut off over a theft, yet another character was permanently turned to stone for angering Count Strahd von Zarovich (and his statue is still standing along the road to Dvergeheim and Krofburg), and one of my own characters was tortured horribly and repeatedly, then dumped in a field and left for dead after trying to spring another character out of Vallaki's Citadel. Vicious punishments are frequent on the Ravenloft server, and plenty of players have enough spine to chin up and roll with them. Surely the playerbase on this server can't be much different. So please don't assume that every player is a bleating weakling just because two or three of them are bleating weaklings who happen to bleat very loudly.

Think of it as a way of weeding out the weak. If a character is subjected to a punishment which he or she rightly deserves according to the setting, but the player throws a screaming tantrum about it, then the DM team learns that that player isn't a solid roleplayer (but is instead a player who expects special treatment merely for playing on this server) and shouldn't be counted on for events which call for solid roleplayers. On the other hand, most people--including the DMs--tend to like a good sport, so the player who chins up and soldiers through his or her character's public torturing or whatever will probably score high marks with the DMs, who in turn may reward that steadfast spirit with rare roleplay opportunities or other rewards.

And what's more, this server actually does have a system for rewarding players who consign their characters to permadeath (namely, giving their next characters a leg up with Experience or Levels). PotM doesn't, yet players over there still relinquish their characters to permadeath quite often. It's just part of the game, only this server actually offers compensation prizes for shuffling off the mortal coil. That tends to lessen the sting of losing a beloved character a bit.

And like Githzerai Monk said, just because enslavement and execution are the two most typically invoked punishments in Thay doesn't mean that those are the only two punishments which the Red Wizards can hand out. Githzerai's idea of trial by combat certainly wouldn't be beyond a Red Wizard's judgement (particularly if that Red Wizard happened to be a fan of blood sports), and Carcass did a good turn with Ihsahn when Meshin's first character tried to steal from Tristella's coinpurse; being the Red Wizard on the ground at the time, and knowing that Tristella is pretty wicked with a whip, Ihsahn adapted his judgement to the situation and ordered that Tristella would drag her own would-be pickpocket into one of Bezantur's pits and give him a public flogging. That was pretty cool, and it nicely demonstrated how flexible Red Wizards can be with their sentences. :)

So I don't think that there's any good reason to handle the players with kid gloves. If their character does something that deserves a smack with the wiffle bat, smack them with the wiffle bat. The players might just thank you for it, perverse lot that we are. And if a player wails and screeches and runs away from the server after his/her character gets smacked with the wiffle bat, let them run. In my experience, those players tend to ruin the server for everyone else, and they tend to be more trouble than they're worth anyway.

[kta]

I am also not of the opinion that people should be pampered over much. But most important is that even if a character is to be punished the punishment itself offers a great oppurtunity for RP. So let any punishment be original and fun even for the offender whenever possible. If however a player does not accept a form of punishment (because it renders a long term pc useless) then an alternative form of punishment should be offered. Via tells and OOC of course!
If on the other hand a new player does not UNDERSTAND how the powerstructure of this setting is set then a OOC explaination is in order - just tell him/her that running past a Red Wizard without a sign of devotion could be trouble - if said player refuses to look into things it is better to just ignore him since he there is no use to force RP on such a person. No punishments should be dealt in that case (being ignored can be a harsh punishment in itself though ).

KTA

[Balanor]

I am also not of the opinion that people should be pampered over much. But most important is that even if a character is to be punished the punishment itself offers a great oppurtunity for RP. So let any punishment be original and fun even for the offender whenever possible. If however a player does not accept a form of punishment (because it renders a long term pc useless) then an alternative form of punishment should be offered. Via tells and OOC of course!
If on the other hand a new player does not UNDERSTAND how the powerstructure of this setting is set then a OOC explaination is in order - just tell him/her that running past a Red Wizard without a sign of devotion could be trouble - if said player refuses to look into things it is better to just ignore him since he there is no use to force RP on such a person. No punishments should be dealt in that case (being ignored can be a harsh punishment in itself though ).

KTA

100% agree with this. I strongly feel that some type of warning should *always* be issued first to new PCs (or their players) before punishment occurs. It is extremely important that new players get at least an inkling of the harshness of some of the others, and the world, their PC is adventuring in before experiencing it in full force. Otherwise we could get those leaving right away and complaining about griefing.

I see this as yet another example of balancing act required to reconcile source material (death for wearing red, for example) yet display a measure of OOC respect to players who may come to adventure here that do not know how certain things are implemented or handled ICly in the PW.

[EdinSumar]

If it helps, Ed Greenwood has stated that the way he sees it, in cases where new source material conflicts with old source material, the new is to be adhered to as the more genuine source.

Also, personally, I think it would be downright silly to limit slavery to a choice purely because someone might be opposed to slavery in real life. I think we are ALL opposed to slavery in real life, hell, I think we are opposed to killing too. It's stupid to let immersion suffer due to that, and highly inconsistent.

Anyways, I am very busy these days, so I won't be involving myself overly much in this thread, I fear, though I might jump in with a bit from time to time if I find the time.

- Edin

[Payne]

It is going to be very difficult to enforce any penalties on this server, not from lack of lore or source material, but because of the human factor behind the characters.

Though in saying that, it shouldnt. This is Thay, this is not a pretty setting full of rainbows and unicorns. This is a land of slaves, drugs, prostitutes, and all manner of hideous creatures wandering their streets. (Could you imagine seeing a Gnoll of Giant Orc in a backally?!)) A land that is full of beings that the common person would see weilding almost god like powers. This is not a small town in the expanse of Utah, this is death, greed, corruption. This is the most feared land in the entire Faerun universe.

I would hate hate hate hate to lose a character on this server to permadeath, but i came here accepting that it may happen. (Wouldn't have tried a RW if I didn't) But that is the atitude you almost have to force on people who play here. You want to risk living in Thay, you accept it what it is. A risk, not a half hearted threat.

As a player who has a RW and made the risk of losing my beloved character to the chance of permadeath in the trials, it is kind of an insult to assume others will refuse their own fates if they cross the "rules of the land". Not saying that is what I read here, but in a nutshell thats what I assume is some thoughts.

You play on a server with slavers. It is a threat from the very first moment you make a new character, and it should always be a threat. Just because you are ooc liked, doesnt mean you are IC. But then I guess that is where I am also a little different than some.

I see such things as non humans using magic, and I have a -very- difficult time keeping my Wizard from killing them outright. This is Thay, Magic is to be held by no others but the RW's. A Hin, Slave, using powerful magic?? Talk about immersion breaking. Not only that, but "my" understanding of Thay is the whole idea of any Wizard in Thay allowing a "Witch" or "Blood Mage" to walk among them is just perposterous. May as well just say lore is out the window, and Thay is aligned with the Rashemi. (talking the Sorcereer class here if someone is not understanding)

I'm not saying this to point fingers or start a whoile new discussion, but more, to show some of the underlining issues we will face when it comes to punishment. We are already bordering on ooc metagaming by allowing some things to pass for the fun of others. Threaten that, and you now have issues.

But what is the solution? I dunno. Respect to your fellow players is a golden rule, I get that. So allowing someone to get a free pass or a ooc nudge for something is always the "friendly" way to do things. But what respect is that for the other who plays by the "setting" of the server? The Player who plays on Thay, as a Thayan, by Thayan standards, by Thayan law, and by Thayan lore. As opposed to the one who just loves the Thayan "concept", and wants to play the game to enjoy themselves and escape the rules and laws of real life.

I guess this goes to a belief I have when it comes to a RP persistant world.

Persistant World - Role Play Server
Do you log on to RP as a living breathing part of a world? To be an actual character in a ongoing story influenced by what happens day to day actions of others. A place where your character grows, laughs, cries, eats, poops (ok, maybe we can skip that) lives and yes, dies.

Persistant World - Adventure Server
Or do you just log on to play a game, get experience to level up, get gold, and rp a little as you adventure (by little i mean the odd comment of "Nice Shot" Or "im out of spells", but basically staying quiet to focus on fighting). With the belief that tomorrow is just another day to repeat the "fun" you had grinding yesterdays dungeon. A place where you are immortal, never ages, never needs to eat or drink, and if you do die, pfft, you just hit respawn and pretend it never happened but for the annoying exp loss.

Punishments can only work for one scenario, you may as well try and mix oil and water if you think it will work for both.

(edit)
....actually with emulsifiers can -can- mix oil and water, but that is an entire different topic.

...I'll just stop now.

[BigbysBackhand]

In my previous post I was trying to answer the question of what laws need be enforced, and how can we implement those punishments without being so harsh on brand new players to this setting. I am all for slavery and perma -death, and in my post that was the point of the three strikes they lead to one of those two options for the minor crimes, with the major crimes leading to further RP through player held and DM supervised trials. As a player who rose through the ranks of the legion enforcing various whims along the way and certain edicts passed down by superiors I understand the difficulty in enforcing the three strikes system. But we must also keep in mind not everyone who joins our server knows the background right away, or joins these forums maybe for several days or weeks after creation…if at all. Nor do those of us who have go and read every post that is here. The three strikes was a solution to this, and it leads to further involvement with each other as legion members and players as a whole. The difficulty in this matter is what police officers have always faced lack of intercommunication and jurisdiction as legionnaires are our police force so to speak they will face the same problems but those issues can be resolved through RP. While I myself am not a designer or developer of this PW there are various scripts running all over Thay at once, and while I do not know how I don’t see why an item like that could mark a person as a criminal to other PC’s with a like item in this case other legionnaires…sort of like an arrest record, barring this…We have journals on every PC and bulletin boards in the legion barracks that rarely get used.

I am not in disagreement with the harshness of our server in any way, I have no qualms with the slavery system or perma- death or even Red Wizards using their spells on PC’s to get their points across. However from my understanding the topic for this thread is what laws do we want and how do we go about enforcing them.

“Note though that this is just the initial phase of implementing a more defined and written set of laws for Thay. This thread is to be used to provide a broad platform of ideals and recommendations that I and the staff will do our best to refine and officially introduce in-game. So please be aware that while any and all comments are appreciated in regard to firming up how the ‘law’ is implemented and will affect the lives of everyone in-game; not all of the suggestions or ideas presented here may be selected to represent the initial implementation of a more robust in-game system of law, crime, and punishment.” ~Thayan~

If we say the laws shouldn’t be defined because it’s not in the lore we must remember this is our take on Thay while the lore is a driving force behind this server it does not define us as it is a PW and we all affect it in our own ways. Thus my Introduction of the three strikes system for the laws we do define. I in no way want this to be turned into an argument or any other conflict of course between players but I do support the idea of a –written down- code of laws on the basis that the server is in need of one to help introduce any and all new players to our world, even if it’s just a section in every ones player guide.

Laws I think that should be punished in some way either through the strike system or other ways:

Murder of a PC: instant 3 strikes Public trial to be judged by our own PC Red Wizards in a sort of tribunal, or high enough ranking PC’s IE: Tribunes in the Tharch involved or High enough Ranking Clergy if no Reds are available, this to be overseen by a DM who can move the guilty party to Oblivion if a death sentence is called for.

Murder of a slave PC: instant 3 strikes counted as theft and the initial buying price of the slave to be repaid along with the enslavement of the offending PC.

Assault of a Red Wizard or High enough ranking member in other faction by one of equal rank: to be settled amongst themselves, with death or enslavement or other various punishments the result of said conflict. However if the two people involved are not red wizards can be brought before one to be settled in whatever manner the Red deems fit.

Assault by a Red Wizard or other High Ranking Member of various faction on one who is lower: Not a crime, however can be brought up before a red if the assaulted is not of the same faction as the assaulter…ie: a High ranking priest of Cyric assaults a lower ranking priest of Tyr. The red wizard has final judgment in said matter, and based on our PW could find the priest of Tyr to be in the wrong just for being a priest of Tyr :P

Theft: one strike, fine to be determined based on item stolen rank of the person who was stolen from allegiance with the thieves guild by said thief ect… return of item.

Assault on a commoner or low ranking member by one of equal rank: one strike and a fine if caught in the act only, otherwise not considered a crime.

Lack of respect to a Red Wizard: to be at the discretion of the offended Red

Lack of Respect to a High Ranking member of various faction: to be at the discretion of Ranking Member

Assault of a Red Wizard or other High enough Ranking Member in whatever faction, by one who is lower in status: instant 3 strikes Slavery, Death, or other inventive punishment to be determined by the offended ranking person.

//in these 3 cases I trust that only veteran players could have risen to said ranks and have the maturity and experience to treat the offending party in a manner fitting to the other persons experience on our server as I have already seen done by our current reds//

Other various laws left to be determined or left vague depending on our community and DM’s to leave room for various bribes/extortions and what have you to help stay consistent to the founding lore ect ect.

[Balanor]

With the server update several changes were implemented directly brought about by the discussion in this thread. While I did take into account the differing opinions, there were some things I just couldn’t implement to a degree that I was comfortable with or felt appropriate to keep to the Thay setting - like tracking a three strike system or allowing players to voluntarily choose to become slaves. Regardless though, a sincere Thank You to everyone who weighed in here.

The laws of Thay and suggested punishments are now available in the Library of Law which can also be found in-game in the Redhall of Eltabbar or copied to the Laws of Thay boards in the various legion barracks. The idea of this written documentation of law and punishment is demonstrate to players/PCs just how twisted and warped the laws and justice system of Thay truly is, yet reinforce that some of the ‘laws’ are (hopefully) vague enough to allow for some flexibility from its enforcers when, or if, punishment for breaking one is needed. 80% of everything in the Library of Law is straight from source material - almost word-for-word in many cases. I’d highly recommend taking a look at it, especially if you play a legionnaire or Red Wizard PC.

Among my personal favorite ‘laws’, direct from source material, are:
“Obey the orders of your betters.”
“The laws of Thay shall be enforced by whoever has jurisdiction over the people involved or the location in which the disturbance occurred.”

Crystal clear stuff, right? ;)


Two additional changes also occurred as a direct result of the discussions here are:
1. Legionnaire Sergeants and above have the ability to imprison any non-legion individual. Yes, that even includes Red Wizards - if you dare! However, one thing I added to the library of Law, which is not in source material, is that imprisonment should only be done for short-term incarceration. This was done to try and avoid making a PC basically unplayable for a time if it is imprisoned. More details on imprisonment, how it can occur, and how it can be released or broken, can be found in the Server Updates thread.

2. Permadeath has made its (limited) return. I really debated this one, and asked for input from the staff on this as well. But again, due to discussions here, I felt that bringing back the possibility of permanent death is needed to give pause to an individual that feels ‘Oh - I can mouth off to this Red Wizard because my PC can always respawn or come back from the Fugue’. Now, notorious individuals may place death marks on other characters. After an accumulation of death marks from different player’s characters, true (perma)death can occur from which the individual cannot return.

I am keenly aware of potential griefing that could occur from this feature modification, so multiple checks are in place to prevent this from being overused or by one player marking a certain character multiple times. Plus, DMs have the ability to remove death marks and/or the permadeath flag itself. See the Permanent Death section of the Death & Dying thread for full details.


I still welcome any further discussion on the topic of Thayan laws and punishment, as well as the changes that occurred based from this discussion.