[Kolde]

Blackguards are actually really powerful if you build them for their strengths. They can reach AC that makes fighters blush, and good saves to boot. As for the Spell List.. They do have one in pnp, but requires Wis just like a paladin to be able to cast from it, and the spell choices in that list are quite underwhelming to say the least. The sneak attack damage works quite well with IKD, or by using the summon to distract. Add in availability for divine might and I've seen them near match a WM on direct damage and even surpass one on a sneak.

I think their main issue lies in the fact that what they need to shine doesn't come until higher levels. You cannot take a level in BG for the typical fighter/rog hybrid until level 8. Needing 6 fighter for the BaB, and either a 7th level in fighter or a level in rogue to then get the 5 hide requirement. They then do not get Turn until level 3, putting them at level 10.. well, then you have to wait 2 more levels to get either divine shield or might, then another 3 levels to finally get the other.. putting you at level 15 before you get both abilities that make the class. (Ranger afaik are the only class that can meet all the requirements to take BG at level 7...)

Paladin's do still outshine them in 1 on 1 PvP because of Holy Sword, GMW, self cast eagles/ aura of glory and other buffs the pally gets, yes. However a BG shines more in other areas, doing far more damage if he can catch the pally off guard for a good flanking attack, or KD or something. On top of this BGs do not need Wis, allowing them to concentrate more on other stats, and less susceptible to dispells since they're more likely to boost stats with gear rather than spells.

All in all BGs are weaker than Paladins, but they are still a very powerful class when done right, able to stand toe to toe with a WM or RDD, due to insane amounts of potential AC.. They're the tankier PrC, or at least thats where they shine mechanically with great saves and high AC (both of which I would argue would be stomped by a paladin in 1 on 1 if they were evil.) For example my main is a BG and even taking away vampire, at level 17 with gear she'd be capable of reaching up to 49 AC without using expertise or the like.

As for adding something to the class, I would like to see them recieve Aura of Despair from PnP. It would give them another utility while not so useful on its own, would make them more useful in a group with a mage (and a great little RP thing too). Another idea, while not true in PnP might be to move turn undead down to lvl 2 so they can begin taking divine feats at level 9 instead of 12. The spell list is a nice idea too, but if it was made to require the wis as normal then its not so worth it. They don't get things like GMW and Aura of Glory, etc to really make it worth dropping 4-6 points into like a paladin anyway.

[Bishop Edward]

Also pale master is severely underwhelming due to losing caster level, and only useful in 40 level power builds, though retaining full progression would create the opposite problem of why NOT take it.

One of their major features in PnP not featured in NWN is that they get 0% Arcane Spell Failure when casting in Undead Armor: Zombie Hide, Skeletal Breastplate, Death Knight Plate, etc... these would be very easy to implement in the server: 0% ASF armors with bone/rotting flesh appearances, with "Class Restriction Use Only: Palemaster" and to balance the heavier armors would be more pricey/higher level requirement/more rare (source: 3.5's Libris Mortis)

[Kolde]

Also pale master is severely underwhelming due to losing caster level, and only useful in 40 level power builds, though retaining full progression would create the opposite problem of why NOT take it.

In PnP they get 0% Arcane Spell Failure when casting in Undead Armor: Skeletal Breastplate, Zombie Hide, Death Knight Plate, etc... these would be very easy to implement in the server: 0% ASF armors with bone/rotting flesh appearances, with "Class Restriction Use Only: Palemaster" (source: Libris Mortis)

In PnP they also do not get the bone skin AC boosts, if I recall.. that was nwn change for it.. One thing I did see on another server though is giving them full CL for necromancy spells only. Not sure how hard that is to script admitedly... Also, maybe allow them to control more undead at a time than a normal mage could? Or boosting their CL progression. In PnP they get 9/10 prgression.. while that might be a bit much for us, maybe boost it to 7/10? Just let them barely reach 9th level spells and not until level 20? 5/10 is a bit pathetic, especially when fighting things with SR.

[TheShadowEntity]

I have been thinking on this and really, the only thing i would like to suggest myself would be some golem creation spells.


Right now we have lots of Undead stuff but not a great deal for wiz pc's who want to create non-undead minions.

[Hellstrom]

Blackguards are actually really powerful if you build them for their strengths. They can reach AC that makes fighters blush, and good saves to boot... All in all BGs are weaker than Paladins, but they are still a very powerful class when done right, able to stand toe to toe with a WM or RDD, due to insane amounts of potential AC.. They're the tankier PrC, or at least thats where they shine mechanically with great saves and high AC... For example my main is a BG and even taking away vampire, at level 17 with gear she'd be capable of reaching up to 49 AC without using expertise or the like.

I'm not trying to argue, but for this discussion I really would like to know the math that you think would get a BG in Thay to 49 AC. That's a simply incredible number to me. With magic gear at pretty much a max of +3 here I just don't see how you get there even if you include the VERY temporary bonuses like Divine Shield which uses up a Turn Undead attempt. Other than Divine Shield I don't see where the BG gets any extra AC over RDD, WM or Mr. Plain Vanilla Fighter.

Add in availability for divine might and I've seen them near match a WM on direct damage and even surpass one on a sneak.

They then do not get Turn until level 3, putting them at level 10.. well, then you have to wait 2 more levels to get either divine shield or might, then another 3 levels to finally get the other.. putting you at level 15 before you get both abilities that make the class. (Ranger afaik are the only class that can meet all the requirements to take BG at level 7...)

A BG might match a WM on a hit or two, sure. Anything can happen. Especially if you include the very temporary and # use limited Divine Might bonus. But for sustained damage output a WM will easily outclass the damage from a BG or any other tank class that I've seen even if the WM does not use their Ki Damage ability. I admit I was not familiar with Divine Might / Divine Shield and I had to look them up, but it seems to me these feats are of limited usefulness since they are of very short duration and can only be used a very limited number of times per day. Even without Ki Damage, the WM just swings and swings and swings for massive amounts of damage.

On top of this BGs do not need Wis, allowing them to concentrate more on other stats, and less susceptible to dispels since they're more likely to boost stats with gear rather than spells.

As for adding something to the class, I would like to see them recieve Aura of Despair from PnP. It would give them another utility while not so useful on its own, would make them more useful in a group with a mage (and a great little RP thing too). Another idea, while not true in PnP might be to move turn undead down to lvl 2 so they can begin taking divine feats at level 9 instead of 12. The spell list is a nice idea too, but if it was made to require the wis as normal then its not so worth it. They don't get things like GMW and Aura of Glory, etc to really make it worth dropping 4-6 points into like a paladin anyway.

These are all very good points.

[DarkRanger]

Divine shield is only trivial if you don't specialize for it, or if you think anything that doesn't last a whole dungeon is trivial. With high starting charisma plus items, it can make all the difference against a heavy hitting opponent.

[Kolde]

I'm not trying to argue, but for this discussion I really would like to know the math that you think would get a BG in Thay to 49 AC. That's a simply incredible number to me. With magic gear at pretty much a max of +3 here I just don't see how you get there even if you include the VERY temporary bonuses like Divine Shield which uses up a Turn Undead attempt. Other than Divine Shield I don't see where the BG gets any extra AC over RDD, WM or Mr. Plain Vanilla Fighter..

S'all good, discussing is how we all learn. :) The AC is counting in divine shield. 10 (base), +11 (Fullplate +3), +6 (Tower shield +3), +3 (deflection), +3 (natural), +3 (dodge), +4 (tumble), +1 (dex), +10 (Divine shield if they have invested in cha and gear) = 51 actually... Compared to the theoritical max of 41 for a WM and 45 for a RDD

And as DarkRanger said, Divine Might and especially Divine Shield are only trivial if you don't invest in charisma. With buffs and gear its not exactly difficult to get 30 cha by higher levels for +10 AC and +10 divine damage for 10 rounds (60 seconds). No a BG cannot sustain output, they are very much burst damage and defense, its kinda their niche. They can boost AC to silly numbers and can boost damage if they want, just about managing the amount of uses to need. Generally at higher levels they should be able to manage 13-18 times/day depending on if they have an extra turning item for 13-18 minutes of AC and/or damage boost to divide up. Not to mention getting to add their (hopefully massive) Cha bonus to Saves gives them another edge in defense over other melee classes.

In summary what I'm trying to say, is while a BG may not be as obvious in its boons, it is by far a weak class, though it does require a bit more work and planning than simply clicking and waiting for the other thing to die. It can be a powerful class if played to its strengths. Now a BG that ignores charisma is gonna be disappointing and fall behind other melee classes.

[Hellstrom]

Cool, thanks for the explanation :) I don't think I've thought about focusing so much on CHA. I suppose you're also taking the Extra Turning Feat to get more uses of the Divine Might & Shield?

I think though that it's going to be very tough to get all that +3 gear on Thay, but it might be possible. Though how do you get to +4 Tumble AC when Tumble is not a class skill for either Fighter or BG? Does that mean you're saving up skill points, taking Rogue levels along the way, and dumping into Tumble at those levels?

[Bertram Anders]

I think RDDs aren't really doing what they were designed for. No one takes it for casters. It seems most just take 1 level of bard or sorc then go all melee class from there. The class description reads: "It is rumored that the magical powers of sorcerers and bards are somehow connected to the presence of dragon blood in their family tree. Red dragon disciples are sorcerers, and sometimes bards, who use their magical power as a catalyst to ignite their red dragon blood, realizing its fullest potential. They prefer a life of exploration to a cloistered existence. Already adept at magic, many pursue adventure, especially if it furthers their goal of finding out more about their draconic heritage. They often feel drawn to areas known to harbor dragons." So wouldn't it make a more since for it to cater to casters more? I have a few suggestions for this.

1. Make it require a few more levels in Bard or Sorc. (Hell or even wizards. Nothing is stopping a PC from having dragon's blood in them generations removed. It may even make people play more casters on the server.)

2. Reduce some of their strengh bonuses. Give more con or int/cha to compensate?

3. Reduce the hit die progression.

4. Give them a spell-progression, so they can continue gaining some spells.

I think this will cater the class to be more of a caster friendly prestige class.

Though any combination of these suggestions would really work. Also pale masters could use a better spell progression option as well, though I will admit I know much less about them.

[Bishop Edward]

1. Make it require a few more levels in Bard or Sorc. (Hell or even wizards. Nothing is stopping a PC from having dragon's blood in them generations removed. It may even make people play more casters on the server.)

Nothing /stops/ a PC from having dragon's blood in them generations removed, BUT for Bards and Sorcs the draconic blood /is/ THE source of their power (classically)... thus I am completely against opening it up for any other classes... but you make a good point about how people always 'use' the class for something other than to advance their arcane bloodline...

That said, I'm in the camp that believes we should stay as close to PnP as possible, so my solution would be to try for something toward the PnP implementation: "Dragon disciples gain bonus spells as they gain levels in this prestige class, as if from having a high ability score," - which doesn't give them 'progression' but rather raises their /effective/ Charisma. The easiest way to achieve this in NWN would probably be +1 charisma at the levels where they gain bonus spells from effective charisma: 1, 2, 4, 5, 6, 8, 9 (not on 3, 7, or 10: where they get +2 anyway from Apotheosis)...

+7/9 charisma alone should encourage players to take more spellcasting levels as such a high charisma would be even more effective that way, without sacrificing their PnP integrity by actually giving them caster 'progression' (so that they still have to actually take those bard/sorc levels, and not, say, fighter levels) or lowering their physical presence (which should balance out when they aren't taking those 'offending' melee-class levels), a sorc 10/rdd 10 is still quite impressive, even though they only cast 5th lvl spells, they cast a heck of a lot of them with an exceedingly high DC... (30-32 Cha total not including items, which would give another 12 for 42-44, depending on if they start with 16-18).