[Balanor]

You are right, Animayhem. The options I plan to make available are listed about halfway down the page here -
http://dndtools.pw/classes/dragon-disciple/

Breath weapons will most likely all be cones as there aren't really any good (thick) line VFX in NWN - or at least not in the variety listed at the source site.

[Githzerai Monk]

Follows are my thoughts on the posted changes:

Dragon Discipline (Red Dragon Disciple) - http://dndtools.pw/classes/dragon-disciple/

1. A minimum of 5 Bard or Sorcerer levels are required to select this class
2. Upon selecting this class, the character can choose what type of chromatic or metallic dragon traits they will manifest. This determines the type of dragon breath, dragon wings, and elemental immunity they receive
3. At 6th level, rather than 7th level, a permanent +2 increase to Constitution is gained
4. At 8th level, rather than 9th level, a permanent +2 increase to Intelligence is gained
5. Every two levels of Dragon Disciple adds +1 to a PC's effective character level (ECL), with a maximum of +4 ECL at level 8. This means level progression for Dragon Disciples will be slower than other classes. In addition, this ECL increase stacks with any ECL increase for special template or subrace characters

I think the ECL penalty is over the top. Having 14 levels in some other class seems far preferable to RDD now. For powerbuilding, I would prefer an extra 4 levels than to take RDD. Especially in combination with the requirement for 5 levels in sorc/bard, this will surely lead to the character having to face some pretty rough monsters for their level.

I would recommend examining what (say) a fighter gets over 14 levels that makes it the equal of 10 levels of RDD. IMO the fighter largely comes out on top.

If the +4ECL is really necessary, what would a 14 level RDD class look like? Can this be implemented? It might make the workings of the class clearer to players.

My rationale for ECL is with all the stat increases, they end up faaaaaar ahead of even the subrace/template PCs that are considered 'powerful' just on the (lesser) stuff they get (fewer ability bonuses and/or special feats), so I felt it appropriate that a class, in this case, get hit with an ECL penalty as well.

Perhaps I can express myself better by saying that under this rationale, the ECL penalty for the stat bonuses is already sufficiently taken care of by needing 10 levels in RDD.

Bard seems a lot more viable than sorc, here. Assuming you go 10 RDD/sorc, you're basically 10 levels of slightly above average fighter without plentiful feats, with 5+ levels in sorc, which gives you a few spells, low DCs, low duration and low dispel resistance. Playing as a mellee whacker type, the sorc levels are baggage and vice versa. AND you face stuff at your level + 4.

Harper Scout - http://dndtools.pw/classes/harper-scout/
1. Skills requirements are: Persuade 8 ranks, Bluff 4 ranks, Lore 4 ranks
2. The Harper Scout gains +1 spellcasting level for each level taken, regardless of whether they are an arcane or divine spellcaster. As a result, the following spells/abilities are not received: Sleep, Cat's Grace, Eagle's Splendor, Invisibility, or Curse Song
3. At 5th level, the Craft Harper Item feat allows the creation of many powerful potions not otherwise craftable, as well as magic musical instruments such as Ollamh Harp, Dove's Harp, Harp of Charming, Austruth Harp, Harp of Haunting, Harp of Pandemonium, Janthra's Harp, Cli Lyre

All those harps should probably be made usable by harper scouts who aren't also bards. Harp of Haunting seems a bit of an odd choice. Animate dead doesn't sound like the Harper's style.

Perform should be a class skill.

If I have arcane and divine spellcasting, does this class act like mystic theurge? What if I take 3 paladin levels, 5 HS levels and then move on to 4th level paladin. Do I get the additional divine spellcasting on my paladin levels from the harper scout levels I already have?

The PnP implementation has favored enemies as evil organisations(rather than creature types), including the red wizards. Giving them favored enemy: Red wizards (and include legionnaires, other folks who are under the red's organisational structure etc.) would make this class a lot more interesting (though I've no idea about viability of implementation). And to make sure the bonus is relevant (and to account for the specificity of "red wizard" as compared to "humanoid"), use character level instead of class level for determining the bonus.

Pale Master - http://dndtools.pw/classes/pale-master/
1. Bonus Language: Necromantic
2. Pale Masters have d4 Hit Die, not d6 Hit Die
3. The Pale Master gains a +1 arcane spellcasting level for each level taken
4. At 4th level, Undead Armor Affinity provides a -10% Arcane Spell Failure when wearing undead armor such as Zombie Hide, Ghoul Shell, or Vampire Hide. This increases to a -20% Arcane Spell Failure at 8th level. Undead Armor Affinity replaces the NWN-specific Bone Skin ability
5. At 5th level, Control Undead is gained and functions as per the NWN spell. This replaces the NWN-specific Summon Undead ability that otherwise would have been gained at level 4
6. At 6th level, Undead Graft also grants the Pale Master a permanent +4 Strength bonus
7. At 9th level, Undead Cohort is gained which summons 3 to 6 random undead creatures of 2 to 4 Hit Dice below the Pale Master's character level

The pale master +1 spell level means DC, spells per day, and durations are improved but no new spells are learned, correct?

Yes, DarkRanger. Basically all I did was change ArcSpellLvlMod entry for Palemaster from 2 (every other level) to 1 (every level). It's described in more detail here in the notes section at the bottom of the page -
http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Classes.2da

This looks very attractive for a melee mage now if what DarkRanger said is correct (spellcasting from pale master affects caster level (CL), ie duration of spells, as well as number of magic missiles/etc.) as you said (your post seems ambiguous to me). In vanilla nwn, pale masters don't get any caster level at all. Example: A 3 wizard/10 pale master casts up to level 4 spells (their spells/day is the same as that of a 3+10/2 = 8th level wizard), but durations and variation dependent upon caster level uses their wizard level of 3 as CL. Magic missile for example dispenses only two missiles to the wizard's aid, instead of the four that an 8th level wizard could conjure.

The spells.2da wiki article you linked seems to indicate that the first level is counted twice, so if you set this to 1 the character will get 11 wizard levels worth of spells/day over 10 pale master levels (2 levels worth of spells/day at level 1 PM, 1 at every other level).

I am going to assume for subsequent comments that I have interpreted spells.2da description incorrectly and it's just 10 levels worth of spells for 10 PM levels, and that CL is also granted by PM levels.

This now seems OP if PM gets additional spells/day and CL at 1/level. But I don't see any good means of balancing it out without taking a bite out of what makes the class fun and special. Giving fewer levels of spells means that the caster maxes out at level 20 with less spells than if they had gone pure wizard/sorc(/or bard, lol), and knocks them from ever attaining the important +5 gmw at level 20 (which is IMO another issue, 15 might be too low a level, but at 20 it encourages some pretty boring level progression for most casters). I don't know how the server is going RE high levels nowadays, so getting/not getting +5 gmw might not be something that anyone cares about anymore because level 20 is so close to retirement/endgame anyway.

The PnP armor proficiency (light + med) is not mentioned in your post, but seems like an easy change to go with the bone armor replacement.

Shadowdancer - http://dndtools.pw/classes/shadowdancer/
1. Skills requirements are: Hide 10 ranks, Move Silently 8 ranks, Perform 5 ranks

With the addition of perform to the skill requirements, this class is now Bard only. I am not sure if this is intended. Make sure that perform is a class skill for SD if it stays as a requirement.

Shifter - http://dndtools.pw/classes/shifter/
1. Druids, 7th level Wizards or Sorcerers or 14th level Rangers who know the spell Polymorph Self, or 9th level Clerics with the Animal domain that provides Polymorph, may all become Shifters
2. The Shapechanging abilities, along with the order in which they are attained, have changed significantly, per the following list below:
a. At 2nd level, Humanoid Shape is gained
b. At 3rd level, Greater Wildshape II is gained
c. At 4th level, Greater Wildshape III is gained
d. At 5th level, Undead Shape is gained. Note that the undead forms provided are not as powerful as the NWN epic version of this ability
e. At 6th level, Greater Wildshape IV is gained
f. At 7th level, Dragon Shape is gained. Note that the dragon forms provided are not as powerful as the NWN epic version of this ability
g. At 8th level, Construct Shape is gained. Note that the construct forms provided are not as powerful as the NWN epic version of this ability
h. At 9th level, Outsider Shape is gained Note that the outsider forms provided are not as powerful as the NWN epic version of this ability
3. At 10th level, each of the Greater Wildshape abilities may be used an infinite number of times per day
4. At 10th level, Darkvision is granted and a Shifter's racial type changes to Shapechanger

I like that the shifter now gets something new and shiny every level. It'd be cool if they could also access cosmetic shifts a la the hood of disguise, but with a larger selection based upon their shapes available. The ones they gain at levelups would remain as determining stats.

The modifications made to the epic forms would be handy to see ahead of time, as shifter necessitates some planning around what items do/don't shift and what ability scores are altered/unaltered.

Vanilla shifter's forms all included like 2-4 uses of "bassilisk gaze" or "drow darkness" etc. The uses/day of these abilities is woefully small, and too ineffective (low DC) to be worth keeping track of using them/quickbarring them all for each shift (it's also not documented at all from the player's perspective until they try to use it after running out of uses). The forms end up just becoming different combinations of ab, damage, AC and immunities. To spice up the shifter it'd be good if these abilities had more uses (why can't the basilisk just keep gazing? or gaze once every minute similar to you've implemented for HiPs?). The only useful one that comes to mind is the ice storm on the Rakshasa, and that's not because it's useful but because it's broken, and not limited to uses/shift.

[Balanor]

Githzerai Monk, I’m more than a bit surprised as to why you care about class modifications when you’ve been gone from the PW for years. Will you actually be playing any of these classes here?

Anyway, some additional info based on his comments below for the players who will be playing here who are also curious about them -

All those harps should probably be made usable by harper scouts who aren't also bards.

Good idea. I’ll make sure that when crafted by a Harper Scout they are useable by Harper Scouts as well.

Perform should be a class skill.

Agreed.

The PnP armor proficiency (light + med) is not mentioned in your post, but seems like an easy change to go with the bone armor replacement

I’ll change the next Pale Master descriptions to include that.

With the addition of perform to the skill requirements, this class is now Bard only. I am not sure if this is intended.

It is.


In regard to my post about spellcasting vs caster levels; I will clarify since I used the term ‘caster level’ which probably confused people as to what these changes will do for Pale Masters and Harper Scouts. And in reading back it didn’t help I misread DarkRanger’s simple question as it seems I overlooked the part about DC and durations, not just spells per day and no new spells learned. So here is the correct, non-ambiguous explanation:

The changes will *not* increase caster levels. They will, however, increase spells that can be cast per day. So a level 5 Wizard / 4 Pale Master would cast DC and duration of spells as a level 5 wizard, but could memorize spells per days as a level 9 wizard. He will also be able to cast spells of up to 5th level since that is what a level 9 wizard would have as well. But again; he will be casting them as a 5th level wizard.

Once I have somewhat of a finalized idea of just what the shifter shapes will look like, I’ll provide them. Will see about making some abilities more useable. This class will likely be one of the last I work on because so much will change with it. I have no intention, at this time, of changing what merges with the shapes as they are now. So the table in the middle of this page would remain accurate.

----------------------------------------------------

For players who want to try these out in-game beforehand I also intend, once the classes changes are very close to complete, to put up a test server for a few hours when I know I can people on to help test. Those who can join will be able to try out the new changes using the class combinations that you want to try. No idea when this will occur though. And it might not be a bad idea for someone to create a Thay PW build module with a level-up option in it using the new Thay PW Hak so you can try out the changes on your own time. Almost everything would work if loading a build module as a single player game, except for the stat adjustment changes which require NWNX.

[Hellstrom]

With the addition of perform to the skill requirements, this class is now Bard only. I am not sure if this is intended. Make sure that perform is a class skill for SD if it stays as a requirement.

This is a good point. Though making it a class skill for SD would only help those players that have already gotten SD levels. You'd need to make it a cross-class skill for other classes unless you want to require at least 1 bard level for all future SDs.

I fully agree with Gith's comments about Shifters.

[Balanor]

One possible nitpick I wonder about is Blackguard point #3. At 3rd level, the Blackguard can Command Undead as would an evil cleric of two levels lower. So this means a 3rd level Blackguard (min 9 character levels total) can command undead as a 1st level cleric. A 10th level BG (min 16 character levels) can command undead as a 8th level cleric. I have to wonder if that's at all useful for any Blackguard except ones that multi-class with cleric. But overall probably a minor point.

I got around to looking at the turn undead script yesterday, and it appears that the custom one I picked up (and tweaked with other things) for the Thay is already taking the Blackguard character level instead of class level as it seems you're not the only one to feel this way. So I'm not going to change it and I will clarify future Blackguard changes to show this modification.

Just for fun, this is what was in the script already. Thought it was kind of funny.

Code:

// * April 2003
  // * Change from official rules for balance purposes
  // * Blackguard gets to turn at 'character level' - 2 not class level
  // * otherwise the ability is rather useless
  if (nBlackguardlevel > 0 && nTotalLevel - 2 > nClassLevel) {
    nClassLevel = nTotalLevel - 2;
    nTurnLevel = nTotalLevel - 2;
  }

[Hellstrom]

Just for fun, this is what was in the script already. Thought it was kind of funny.

Code:

// * April 2003
  // * Change from official rules for balance purposes
  // * Blackguard gets to turn at 'character level' - 2 not class level
  // * otherwise the ability is rather useless
  if (nBlackguardlevel > 0 && nTotalLevel - 2 > nClassLevel) {
    nClassLevel = nTotalLevel - 2;
    nTurnLevel = nTotalLevel - 2;
  }

Very cool, it will be fun to command some undead :) Yaaaaaaaaay!

[Bishop Edward]

With the addition of perform to the skill requirements, this class is now Bard only. I am not sure if this is intended.

You'd need to make it a cross-class skill for other classes unless you want to require at least 1 bard level for all future SDs.

Thayan, I honestly don't see any reason not to make perform cross-class for all classes unless its hard coded. In PnP, any class can cross-class perform, after all; it's still a significant investment in a skill non-bards would never use except to achieve shadowdancer or for RP (and RP skills are good thing, non?)

[MilesBeyond]

Loving these changes. A big problem I had with PrCs in NWN was the way that they really didn't seem all that meaningfully different from the base classes they required. This makes them a lot more exciting. I've gone from wondering when I'd use PrCs to now debating which of my characters I should give one to.

[Balanor]

Updates -
-All class modifications are done but for Harper crafting and modifications to the Shifter dragon and construct shapes.

-As clarification to the ECL increase for Dragon Disciples; this will only affect how much XP the character receives. When it comes to determine encounter difficulties, etc, the ECL increase does not come into effect. ECL is something though that can be modified without hak updates, so these increases could be reviewed and potentially adjusted depending on long-term in-game observation and feedback

-Due to how targeting of spells works when provided through a radial menu, all Blackguard and Assassin spells can only be cast on the caster, or on an allowed target (most often a creature, but sometimes a placeable or door). They cannot be cast on the ground.
In addition, the 1st level Assassin spells, since 3 of the 4 are self-cast-only anyway, will all immediately be cast on the PC when selected. I realize that this means Assassins will need to be close to any hostile targets in order to get them affected by the Sleep spell. But for the amount I am anticipating that spell will actually be used in comparison to the other three, I felt the choice to make the entire spell level self-cast was 'acceptable'.

-To save my sanity, I will not be implementing a class verification script to check and update existing PCs to the new class modifications. PCs will only get changes for your class at each level up. If you already have a PC with any of the affected classes and you do want the abilities of a lower level...you'll need to de-level yourself at the Enchantment Forges or in some other way, then re-level. The good news is that you will not lose any of the NWN-standard class abilities you may have gained though.
I know some people get very attached to their PCs, but I'd like to encourage those of you with PCs affected by these changes to consider starting over new if you want to try out a character build, rather than trying to readjust an existing Ps. I do not want DMs to be doing any character rebuilds because of these changes, since that will be a task that never ends.

[Hellstrom]

Updates -
-All class modifications are done but for Harper crafting and modifications to the Shifter dragon and construct shapes.

Wow, that's fast work T. It's great to hear how this is all coming along!