[Rizogue]

Alrighty, so the new guy speaks up...

I know talking about 4E around here is like talking about child molestation at a Catholic Priest Convention. I would like to first make clear that I am no fan of the 4E rules. Out of all the D&D books I own, all I own for 4E is the two Forgotten Realms Campaign books. And those are only for reading about the future events that are reshaping the setting I love - not because I plan to ever use 4E rules...

That being said, the reason I decided to look for a Thayan-based PW was directly because of reading Gauntlgrym, Book 1 of the Neverwinter Series - a series set entirely after the Spellplague. I had already read through Books 1 and 2 of Haunted Lands, and now that I am done with Gauntlgrym, I just got, but haven't started, Unholy.

I read a post by Thayan about the future of the PW, and I noticed a suggestion that the understanding is that Thay ends up a wasteland as a result of the current events in Post-Spellplague-Faerun. In actuallity, Thay seems to finally be getting the respect it deserves in this new incarnation, and is poised to really grow as a nation as a result.

There is a sort of revolutionary war going on, and since the majority of Tam's forces are undead, Thay is suffering through a self-imposed and legnthy famine as the fields are burned and often diseased.

Dread Rings are popping up in unexpected places where major catastrophies take place, and those forces loyal to Tam are swelling their forces with the re-animated bodies of both friends and foes as they continue thier conquest.

What is the point of all this? I guess I just think that discounting the future as it is written seems a bit sacreligious. I guess I just missed most of the debate where it was decided that 4th Edition is profane to discuss, and hate that I didn't get to give my $0.01 (I can't affort 2 cents... sorry!)

Anyways
</rant>

-Rizogue

[EdinSumar]

I don't like 4th Edition Faerun in general, not so much because of all the changes just because they are changes (there must always be change, change is good) but because all the changes basically makes it into another setting altogether. I don't recognise many of the things that I like about Faerun in it's newest incarnation, and then I guess I might as well be playing another setting.

I also think that 4th Edition caters too much to players wanting to be "special" or appear different from the norm, which does nothing but devalue such terms. It empowers the idea that an uncommon race/class is a substitute for a good story and deep characterisation.

- Edin

[kta]

Sacrilege?

This:



and this:



changed to this:



Do I need to say more?

KTA

[Rizogue]

Ok, playing Devil's Advocate here (but only a little...),

Since the setting is created by writers and designers who have taken our game world to this new place, the statement that you 'might as well be playing another setting' is really exactly what you already are doing: creating a Faerun where these events don't and won't ever take place.

In this version of Thay, we are really restricted (not that it's a bad thing!)to only one possible ruleset by our chosen engine, which is the original Neverwinter Nights. We use the 3E character generation system exclusively. The NPCs we write up all have 3E stats. The visual representation that we choose to use are our own, based on whatever imagery of Red Wizards we choose to represent (Yes, those cartoon depictions above are easilly laughable, KTA. But that argument alone can't fully explain the obvious repulsion from the canon source material that we are experiencing here.)

I'm not suggesting that we develop some intricate way to bring any 4E rules into the game. What I am concerned about is the disregard for canon future events that will take the project off of the official canon timeline, and lead us too far away from the history (and future) of the setting that we have based all this work on.

My point is that while 4E D&D may be awful, we don't really have to use any of it. However, post-Spellplague Faerun is a vision of a set future that our gameworld has in store for us. The timeline of Thay PW is such that (from my understanding) we haven't even run through the Time of Troubles yet. We are putting the cart way before the horse by stating that as the time passes, we will be disregarding these future events, and writing our own future. While that is admirable, and helps bring ownership and a deeper level of immersion to the project, taking it too far astray could make it just as unfamiliar to us, and any newcomers that come along expecting to find a Thay based on written canon material.

I'm just throwing my ideas out there. I am here as a simple consumer, benefiting from all the time and effort that you guys have put into this thing, and I am definitely not here to ruffle any feathers. I am just a fan commenting on some of the things I have seen and read in my short time in this wonderful new place.

Thank you,
-Rizogue

[EdinSumar]

The timeline of Thay PW is such that (from my understanding) we haven't even run through the Time of Troubles yet. We are putting the cart way before the horse by stating that as the time passes, we will be disregarding these future events, and writing our own future. While that is admirable, and helps bring ownership and a deeper level of immersion to the project, taking it too far astray could make it just as unfamiliar to us, and any newcomers that come along expecting to find a Thay based on written canon material.

The Times of Trouble has happened, it was one of the first big server-wide events held, it lasted for a few months as far as I remember.

Velsharoon was recently raised to a deity.

Basically, everything that canonically happens 3rd edition and 3.5th edition is canon and will happen as pertains to Thay PW. Anything past that is mutable, 4th edition is not and will not be canonical to Thay PW.

- Edin

[kta]

Since the setting is created by writers and designers who have taken our game world to this new place, the statement that you 'might as well be playing another setting' is really exactly what you already are doing: creating a Faerun where these events don't and won't ever take place.

No. We just leave the setting as it is now.

In this version of Thay, we are really restricted (not that it's a bad thing!)to only one possible ruleset by our chosen engine, which is the original Neverwinter Nights. We use the 3E character generation system exclusively. The NPCs we write up all have 3E stats. The visual representation that we choose to use are our own, based on whatever imagery of Red Wizards we choose to represent (Yes, those cartoon depictions above are easilly laughable, KTA. But that argument alone can't fully explain the obvious repulsion from the canon source material that we are experiencing here.)

It is 3.5 we try to get close to actually. The images I posted are not the explaination but a example. The point is not just the style but the obvious totally different concept of the Red Wizards.

I'm not suggesting that we develop some intricate way to bring any 4E rules into the game. What I am concerned about is the disregard for canon future events that will take the project off of the official canon timeline, and lead us too far away from the history (and future) of the setting that we have based all this work on.

The way I see it the setting we have now would be lost for the most part if we took the "future history" into account. Not talking about the tremendous changes of ALL module areas that would be needed to reflect the timeline - and most of it "over night"...

My point is that while 4E D&D may be awful, we don't really have to use any of it. However, post-Spellplague Faerun is a vision of a set future that our gameworld has in store for us. The timeline of Thay PW is such that (from my understanding) we haven't even run through the Time of Troubles yet. We are putting the cart way before the horse by stating that as the time passes, we will be disregarding these future events, and writing our own future. While that is admirable, and helps bring ownership and a deeper level of immersion to the project, taking it too far astray could make it just as unfamiliar to us, and any newcomers that come along expecting to find a Thay based on written canon material.

I do not expect many 4E loving newcomers using a decade old software, soon enough it will be just us old guys running around here. :P

I'm just throwing my ideas out there. I am here as a simple consumer, benefiting from all the time and effort that you guys have put into this thing, and I am definitely not here to ruffle any feathers. I am just a fan commenting on some of the things I have seen and read in my short time in this wonderful new place.

Comments are always welcome here.

KTA

[Balanor]

Indeed Rizogue, I welcome this discussion. It could/should be a lively one. A few points though -

On the main welcome page for these forums, which has not actually been updated since these forums went live, I know it mentions something like "the server's settings begins in the year 1357 DR, before the Time of Troubles, etc, etc". That was true when we first started the server...3.5 years ago! Those terms should be changed to the past tense now and I will do that soon. Since one real-life year represents four Thayan years, we are actually midway through the year 1368 DR in-game right now. Halfway to the events of the Spellplague (I'll comment more on that thing in a bit).

Not speaking from a character perspective or even a story perspective, but from a purely selfish design perspective, the amount of change that would be needed to the module to change Thay to as it would exist in 4th edition would be significant as KTA mentioned. Currently we don’t even have all of Thay completed as it stood during the 2nd and 3rd editions, so by the time we finish that, the events of the 4th edition would come and sweep it all away! While I understand the desire, and agree that it would be cool, to adventure in a realm of undead, the focus of this server is to create a dark realm ruled by evil wizards, as per the material that many of us playing a 10 year-old game grew up with. To adventure in such a place, a different Thay server running a different Thay module would probably need to be the route to go.

Now I’ll just get on my own rant for a bit here about 4th edition and Forgotten Realms. Prepare yourselves... ;)

First off, well...hell...why?!? Why fundamentally change the setting the fans of it had used and gotten used to over the course of the decades it had been out? If they wanted a new setting *coughs*Eberron*coughs* then why not simply create it that way, rather than change an existing setting in such a huge and realms-shattering way than they did? Or if they were sick of it, why not just discontinue working on it and let all us old players live in the glory years of the past? Years upon years of canon and official material were wiped away with the changes (such as the wonderfully diverse pantheon of gods being wiped clean, the very nature of magic being changed, and so on).

I suppose I am rather conservative in this view, but I fail to see the reason for this change for the sake of change. The Forgotten Realms setting in pre-4th edition certainly has its flaws, no doubt about it. But it also had a significant number of fans who obviously liked the majority of the setting for one reason or another. When that majority they like is radically changed, it gives me the impression that WoTC is telling the setting’s fanbase that they don’t care about it the way the fans do and if the fans don’t like it – tough luck.

But back to the Thay PW, I do realize though that I and the (majority) of the current staff are basically saying the same thing about playing in Thay as it is now though. If you don’t like it, well...it’s maybe tough luck. ;) It is our vision of the world using the pre-4th edition material available and if you don’t like it well...we will listen. I say *maybe* tough luck because the beauty of NWN is that things can be modified in such radical ways, and that we aren’t a 25 million person server/game with 25 million different points of views, so input from people who spend their time here actually has a far better chance of making an impact on the server than a MMORPG.

I will end by saying I really liked, possible love, the Haunted Land trilogy books (hell, I’m re-reading them now actually). It saddens me that officially Thay becomes a realm of the undead, because I love a land of evil wizards that is so powerful it could rule most of Faerûn, but so dysfunctional it doesn’t even know how to rule itself. I feel that the current setting provides so many interesting opportunities and potential that it doesn’t need such a radical change to continue making the Thay PW a fun* place to hang out.

*Fun can be loosely translated into a word of your choice here...

[Rizogue]

On all those points, I 100% agree. I guess I am seeing it from the 'it is what it is' perspective. Nobody called any of us into the meeting where these changes were decided, so I just figure we either go with it, or we move on. Both are perfectly acceptable options, and it is entirely in your right to do what is in the best interest of yourselves, and the community.

If there was a world in need of smashing, I'd vote for Eberron myself too. I've had more than my share of rants over the treatment that setting got right out of the box... I won't waste the database space raving like a lunatic about that here. :)

Thanks for allowing me to be involved in the debate!

-Rizogue

[Amracil]

Kids want new toys - not the toys their parents played with. Any game that lasts a while will see these kinds of changes. Game designers have to make such changes in order to entice a new generation of gamers to play. Again, few kids want to play the game their parents played. AD&D/NWN is not the only game to see such changes occur.

I say "to hell" with trying to keep things true to changes made in the name of keeping the numbers at the bottom line of a corporate net sheet in the black. It was this world (the one represented by the current server) that pulled me in. I really could not care less about what the stuffed shirts responsible for generating a profit at the game companies do. It doesn't have to affect this place or the world we enjoy in the least.

I put my faith entirely in those running things here and anticipate that there will be changes in this world that make sense for this world, regardless of what goes on outside it.

Respects,

Am

[Animayhem]

I am not involved in all the histories and such of FAERUN and the timelines and such. This is my 4th PW.
So I am going to speak in general here. I think what is missing is regardless of storylines and differences between PW's and the age of the game is the game itself. I enjoyed it in single player.
The beauty of NWN is it has allowed people the freedom to create all the miriad of worlds out there. The toolset is awesome and it allows people to even customize haks. I have created modules for myself and others.
As for Thay, you have done a wonderful job and my view is, sure there maybe "set events" but players shape it based on their own characters, we help change the events. The creators here although they have appropriate guidelines still allow player creativity.